Gods or Epic. Arch-Devils and Demon Princes in BoVD

[The Serge]

Demogorgon's most current incarnation is now CR 30.

Big C could probably beat him, but that's mostly because Cthulhu is immune to a lot of Demogorgon's abilities, but not necessarily the reverse. Cthulhu is rated as CR 34. Seems about right.

Ahhh, man!!!! Demogorgon would slap the crap outta that overgrown, mutated octopus!

Just joking. These are two different kinds of beings from different concepts, so I don't really know who would win in my campaign.

Thanks for responding, Monte.

Originally posted by Upper_Krust
Nice to see you over on these boards for a change!

Thanks! I do often read stuff here but rarely post since by the time I see most of the stuff, what I would have said has already been covered.

Yes, I have and I've read DDG. I've also created stats for my gods, although I treat the stats as uber-avatars rather than the gods (there are ways to fight my gods, but it requires a lot of epic-level power and the judicious use of some artifacts). And, yes, I know I can always take whatever the BoVD has and slap down some DvRs. I just want everyone, including WotC to agree with my take since, afterall, my take is the only one that matters

Actually, I just like these kinds of meaningless debates (like who would win, Magneto or Dr. Doom?!)

Originally posted by Upper_Krust

Not necessarily, remember that the Hundred Handed Ones (of which there are only 3 in Greek Mythology) helped Zeus fight the Titans - and made a difference to the outcome! So obviously they probably approach Zeus in power...

Point. I had forgotten about that. Well, that means that only Demogorgon, Asmodeus, Anthraxus, and few other Demon Princes would be able to beat the tar out of them! Heh.

Originally posted by Lady Dragon
I think the best answer for the BoVD would be here our "official" position (choose one of 3 above) but here are the stats for the other two or here is the way to convert them to the other 2. So then each DM can make the choice for his own campaign.

If this is what happens, I'll be pleased. Like I said before, I continue to pose this kind of thing because I like these kinds of discussions. I'll buy the book and will probably be pleased with it even if Asmodeus could be beat down by an Advanced Solar (I'd be ticked, but I'd still enjoy the book).

Originally posted by Tyros I've DM'd with Orcus, Asmodeus and the crew in my game, and I would say they should be much tougher than any type of creature, including dragons (gasp.). Demon lords should be on par with solars at the very least since they are unique creatures, and demon princes/archdevils should be more powerful than demi-gods and almost as powerful as lesser gods. I just got the new Deities & Demigods book, so I'm not familiar with the new system yet. But if demigods are still basically the offspring of a god and a mortal, they should be more powerful than that. After all, they are the most powerful rulers of their native planes of hell / abyss and such. I would also like to see Anthraxus again.

Hear, hear!!!! I love Anthraxus (although Asmodeus would kick his hideous butt)!

Incidently, UK, Anthraxus reappeared in a Dragon annual some years ago as part of Planescape. He's called an Altraloth, Yugoloths who, through special arrangements with Night Hags, go through a special magical process that makes them extremely powerful, and very unique. With these new found powers, these Altraloths do some service for the Hags then go about their own business. Along with Anthraxus, there are five other Altraloths included in this issue (Annual 2) and they are all NASTY!!!! Anthraxus is the most powerful and wields (get this) The Staff of the Lower Planes, a magic item (looks like an artifact to me) made from the "defiled bones of a pit fiend and a balor that functions as a staff of beguiling, casts mass charm (3/day), and fullfill another's wish (1/day)." It can do a lot more. As for his own power in this, Anthraxus could beat the tar out of most avatars in Monster Mythology, but, alas, he wasn't even a demigod...
Assuming you continue reading this, Mr. Cook, any clues as to Anthraxus' appearance in BoVD?

Also, I would love to start seeing some leaked out art, particularly from Sam Wood. Both Wood and Todd Lockhart have done great jobs. I saw a pencil rendering of Lolth and Dispater from Wood and I really thought he captured the decayed, corrupted and corruptible aspects of the Lord of the Second.

By the way, UK, the thread wherein the rumor I mentioned can be found is:

http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=222;t=000325;p=2

 

[Upper_Krust]

Monte (at his website) says that the Dungeon Magazine Orcus is considerably weaker than the BoVD Orcus.

The Orcus in Dungeon magazine was at least CR32 (by my reckoning). Make that CR 33 if we add Divine Rank 0.

So I would be curious what these 'considerable improvements' entail? Especially if Demogorgon is only CR30.

If Demogorgon has at least 40 HD and 20 effective* Sorceror Levels and 20 effective* Cleric Levels then he is CR30. If we then add Divine Rank 0 and his Special Abilities/Qualities (3 Gazes; Tentacle Withering; Tail Energy Drain; Additional Head; +?), he becomes at least CR32 if not CR33.

With 50HD (and all the above) Demogorgon becomes CR34.

*No hit points; saves etc. (As per the Dungeon Magazine Orcus)

 

[Nightfall]

I hated the Orcus in Dungeon.

Btw I wanted to ask Monte this. WILL the Diseased Eight be in your book or not? (I don't believe so because I'm reasonable sure Scott's Tome of Horrors has our boy, Anthraxus. So probably not!) That said, I can't wait for this book! I want my Orcus. All two of him!

 

[The Serge]

I hated the Orcus in Dungeon.

Btw I wanted to ask Monte this. WILL the Diseased Eight be in your book or not? (I don't believe so because I'm reasonable sure Scott's Tome of Horrors has our boy, Anthraxus. So probably not!) That said, I can't wait for this book! I want my Orcus. All two of him!

Hello, Nightfall.

Were the Diseased Eight ever statted in 1ed? A few of them were statted in the Dragon Annual I mentioned (including Charon) for 2ed Planescape, but I don't remember ever seeing their 1ed stats. If they were, could you tell me the source?

Thanks!

 

[Nightfall]

I dunno. You could look on Scott's site. I know he did some conversions. Krusty might know. He is the Epic Level/Divinity Expert to a degree.

 

[Lady Dragon]

Charon and Anthraxus are in 1E MM2 I don't think the rest ever were I don't recall ever seeing it but I will look through some of my stuff and see maybe in Dragon Magazine.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

In my opinion (feel free to jump in Monte) Anthraxus* won't be in the BoVD, and I have almost given up hope of ever seeing the General of Gehenna.

*Anthraxus is in the Tome of Horrors.

Its very unlikely that any of the 'Diseased Eight' will be present (although a few of them were detailed in the Dragon Magazine Annual you mentioned Serge mate). It seems as though the BoVD is going to concentrate on the major players rather than give us a blanket treatment of Princes; Dukes and Masters.

Even more unlikely is that anyone will be using the term 'Diseased Eight' in published material; Gary Gygax coined the term in his Gord the Rogue novels. To my knowledge its never been used elsewhere!?

My impression of the BoVD is that we will get the Archdukes of Hell (9, 10 counting Fierana); maybe 6 Demon Princes (Demogorgon; Graz'zt; Orcus and Zuggtmoy - obviously. Yeenoghu, almost certainly. Baphomet would seem plausible.)

We could end up with a surprise package of the General of the Gehenna (?), Apomps (?) Mydianchlarus (?) Princes of Elemental Evil (?).

So probably about 20 (or so) individuals of note...?

 

[The Serge]

In my opinion (feel free to jump in Monte) Anthraxus* won't be in the BoVD, and I have almost given up hope of ever seeing the General of Gehenna.

*Anthraxus is in the Tome of Horrors.

From the folks over at Creature Collection? Well, so long as they use EHL and DDG stuff on him and other god-like entities, it should be pretty nice to see him... particularly if they hire a decent artist.

Its very unlikely that any of the 'Diseased Eight' will be present (although a few of them were detailed in the Dragon Magazine Annual you mentioned Serge mate). It seems as though the BoVD is going to concentrate on the major players rather than give us a blanket treatment of Princes; Dukes and Masters.

Too bad, although I recognize that space has to be used well and that most gamers seem to be interested in the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes...

Even more unlikely is that anyone will be using the term 'Diseased Eight' in published material; Gary Gygax coined the term in his Gord the Rogue novels. To my knowledge its never been used elsewhere!?

Well, I can't find these books anywhere. They're out of print (apparently they have been for a while) and I can't find them on ebay... Are they like the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stuff in style?

My impression of the BoVD is that we will get the Archdukes of Hell (9, 10 counting Fierana); maybe 6 Demon Princes (Demogorgon; Graz'zt; Orcus and Zuggtmoy - obviously. Yeenoghu, almost certainly. Baphomet would seem plausible.)

We could end up with a surprise package of the General of the Gehenna (?), Apomps (?) Mydianchlarus (?) Princes of Elemental Evil (?).

So probably about 20 (or so) individuals of note...?

You know, I never warmed up to Fierana (yes, a weak pun, but I'm allowed to do that). The name makes it obvious that she's some fire-chick...

Anyway, my vote (had I been asked) would have been the current Lords of the Nine (I wonder which title will be "official," Lord of the Nine or Arch-Dukes/Devils?), the recently deposed Lords like Moloch and Geryon (both of whom appeared in the latter day 2ed modules, Apocalype Stone (Pramas and Miller) and A Paladin in Hell (Cook), a few Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, Lolth [ha!], Zuugtymoy, that Frazwhathisname, and Baphomet). While it would be nice to see the General, I'd be far more interested in Anthraxus.

Unless Cook and co. decided to greatly enhance their power, I don't see why the Princes of Elemental Evil would be in this book. Imix appeared in Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and, although he's tough for a bunch of 14th to 17th level characters, he's not all that bad on a "cosmic" level. Of course, it's possible (and sensible) that we'll want a nice spread of unique, evil entities that run the CR spectrum... So I retract my former statement.

 

[The Serge]

Charon and Anthraxus are in 1E MM2 I don't think the rest ever were I don't recall ever seeing it but I will look through some of my stuff and see maybe in Dragon Magazine.

You will find Anthraxus, Charon (under the name Cerlic), and a few other Altraloths in Dragon Annual 2 in the Planescape section. They're all very, very nasty.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

From the folks over at Creature Collection? Well, so long as they use EHL and DDG stuff on him and other god-like entities,

Unlikely, given that neither the ELH nor D&Dg are SRD yet.

However, I wouldn't worry, Scott Greene is more than capable!

it should be pretty nice to see him... particularly if they hire a decent artist.

I have heard the art is very good!

Too bad, although I recognize that space has to be used well and that most gamers seem to be interested in the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes...

Thats because they have never been properly introduced to Infestix and his Diseased Eight.

Well, I can't find these books anywhere. They're out of print (apparently they have been for a while) and I can't find them on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1751395168

In order the books are:

#1 Saga of Old City - low level
#2 Artifact of Evil - mid level
#3 Sea of Death - high level
#4 Come Endless Darkness - epic level
#5 Dance of Demons - ultra epic level

#A Night Arrant

Collection of short stories surrounding Gords exploits.

#B City of Hawks

Sort of like a prequel - set before the main campaign.

Are they like the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stuff in style?

Gord sort of starts out like the Gray Mouser (and on occasion is accompanied by Chert a massive barbarian) in feel, but it all quickly unfolds into this apocalyptic campaign to prevent the awakening of THARIZDUN.

After Gord; you could even say that Graz'zt was the second-main character! Lots of chapters devoted to the politics and battles of the lower planes!

Trust me you will love them!

You know, I never warmed up to Fierana (yes, a weak pun, but I'm allowed to do that). The name makes it obvious that she's some fire-chick...

Anyway, my vote (had I been asked) would have been the current Lords of the Nine (I wonder which title will be "official," Lord of the Nine or Arch-Dukes/Devils?),

I think its safe to assume they are all in there.

the recently deposed Lords like Moloch and Geryon (both of whom appeared in the latter day 2ed modules, Apocalype Stone (Pramas and Miller) and A Paladin in Hell (Cook),

Very unlikely they will be in the BoVD since they are in Tome of Horrors.

a few Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, Lolth [ha!], Zuugtymoy, that Frazwhathisname, and Baphomet).

Juiblex and Fraz-Urb'luu are in the Tome of Horrors. Baphomet is also there although his name is taken from mythology so there could be a cross-over?

I would have liked to have seen (the D&D) Lolth (where she belongs), but I think its highly unlikely - I seem to remember Monte saying Lolth was a deity and wasn't in the book(?).

While it would be nice to see the General, I'd be far more interested in Anthraxus.

Even better to see them both...

Unless Cook and co. decided to greatly enhance their power, I don't see why the Princes of Elemental Evil would be in this book.

All the evidence suggests the Princes of Elemental Evil will be in the BoVD.

Imix appeared in Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and, although he's tough for a bunch of 14th to 17th level characters, he's not all that bad on a "cosmic" level.

I spoke to Monte about Imix ages ago and he stated that he designed him long before the ELH or D&Dg were even in the planning stages.

Give Imix: Divine Rank 0; 20th-level Sorceror and Cleric abilities and then we'll see some fireworks!*

*You're not the only one with bad puns you know.

Of course, it's possible (and sensible) that we'll want a nice spread of unique, evil entities that run the CR spectrum... So I retract my former statement.

I am curious what the next highly anticipated book from WotC will be after this one!?

Does WotC reveal its Spring 2003 line up at Gencon?