Gods, planes, afterlife, and the common man

[Bullgrit]

It seems to be a commonly agreed-upon truism around here that the people in a D&D world know for a fact that the gods exist. They know other planes exist, and that there is an afterlife of some sort.

But really, what proof is there of any of this? What evidence can a cleric of Pelor show of his god's true existance that a priest of Zeus didn't have in Real World Greece?

Can't really say "divine magic" -- a commoner doesn't know divine magic from arcane magic. So this guy can heal a wound with magic. That guy can cause a wound with magic. "Do the gods give him his magic?"

And clerics and druids and mages can actually get their magic from all kinds of things -- some clerics don't even have to have a god to cast their spells. (Even in classic D&D, clerics can cast low-level spells without a god's influence.)

99.999% of the population (which can include high-level individuals) never see a god, or visit another plane of existence, and never come back from death.

So, really, what proof is there for the "common commoner" that the gods are real, and there is some kind of afterlife. D&D-world atheists don't even have to use the "the gods are just very powerful beings" reasoning.

A D&D-world atheist can say simply, "there are no gods." How can a D&D cleric demonstrate he's wrong?

Bullgrit

 

[Alzrius]

It seems to be a commonly agreed-upon truism around here that the people in a D&D world know for a fact that the gods exist. They know other planes exist, and that there is an afterlife of some sort.

But really, what proof is there of any of this?

Religious questions aren't about proof for most people; they're about faith.

 

[Umbran]

Well, the standard pseudo-medieval mindset probably isn't exactly so scientifically oriented. Standards of "proof" may not need to be high.

What proof can be had is going to be game, setting, and probably level dependent. If I can shunt you off to the plan in which the god lives, or arrange for you to speak to your dead relative and they can tell you about the afterlife, that's one thing. If those feats are not possible, the question's tougher.

Consistency of assertion matters. Take healing magic as an example: if everyone who can heal woulds claims to be a follower of a god (or deific concept, or what have you) then people will generally come to the conclusion that there's at least some similarity among all these people.

 

[Teemu]

Plane Shift to the appropriate plane?

 

[Doug McCrae]

The afterlife is a very hard thing to prove. Someone really has to have been to Heaven, or Hell, and returned, which doesn't happen too often. And they may not even be believed.

In some D&D worlds, such as Forgotten Realms, the gods are very active on Earth, so there's more proof. In Eberron the gods are distant, in fact the setting leaves it open that they may not exist at all.

Another issue is that in the pre-modern world, atheism was rare afaik. People believed in the divine, in gods, spirits, demons, very readily. And that was with no proof whatsoever. How much more ready would they be to believe when gods, demons and spirits are real, and magic powers abound?

 

[Alzrius]

I wanted to reference part of an article Paul Melroy wrote on this. The full article is found here.

Felling a tree – especially with primitive equipment – is a dangerous thing. It may splinter, it may fall in the wrong direction, it may snap, the head of the axe may come loose, ropes may break or be whipped about with lethal force, the would-be feller could fall, and even a comparatively minor wound could lead to a lethal infection or throw a blood clot into the heart or brain.

Today, when a man is injured, or killed, in such an endeavor, we would look for the cause of the failure – improper procedure, a rope poorly fastened, a loose axe head, or any of a hundred other things. We’re pretty confident that – if we do things correctly, and check our equipment carefully – we can do things safely enough.

That has never been the case before.

Until very recently, most failures were inexplicable, or at least the result of flaws and causes that could neither be seen nor easily anticipated. Life was wildly chancy and unpredictable. The world was full of things – many of them vital to human survival – which happened for no reason at all. A solid majority of children did not live to adulthood.

For our tree-feller, there was little that could be done to ensure success save to do the best that he or she could, use the best tools available – and propitiate the gods and spirits, use charms for luck and success, and make sure that there were no major ill-omens or evil influences about.

It’s never been easy to deal with there not being anything you could do about something. That’s a survival mechanism of course; often there IS something sensible you can do to improve your odds – but, like most survival mechanisms, there’s no good way to shut off that drive to keep looking for ways to improve the odds when you’ve already done everything you can. Thus, prayers, magic, and rituals – not that there was any clear distinction throughout most of history.

Hence why people believe in gods, planes, the afterlife, etc. Because it's a logical extension of the above, wherein things that happen have an easily-understood answer.

 

[Umbran]

Alzirus, I think your quote overstates the issue by quite a bit, but the basic point is still valid.

Humans can and will explain how and why things happen. When we don't know, we will often still assert some reason that seems plausible - and assert it not as a hypothesis, but as the truth. Testing hypotheses is something people have to be trained to do.

We see this all the time today - how much really crappy medical information is floating around the internet?

 

[ExploderWizard]

The way it used to work was that clerics had to actually pray to receive their spells. An observer could witness divine magic in action that could not be produced by arcane magic.

This wouldn't by itself prove that the power was coming from the deity that the cleric pronounced that it was from but it had to come from somewhere that even the mightiest wizards with all of their study could not duplicate.

Clerics that behaved poorly would have their magical powers suspended by something.

 

[Stormonu]

I think there's a couple of things:

1) Divine magic is real; there's really no denying that when a cleric utters a prayer, he gets results. That lends real credence to the claim it's coming from somewhere and isn't just a totally wild and unsubstantiated claim (though a wizard might be able to fake similar results with arcane magic; I don't imagine though, most wizards would claim they got their magic from divine sources).

2) Arcane magic can't heal or bring back the dead (other than undead). Only those professing the existence of a god seem to have the ability to return the dead to life, heal wounds and cure other maladies. This tends to lend credence to the fact that clerics aren't just using arcane magic; their source of power is likely coming from somewhere else, and thus a divine/infernal source.

3) Avatars of the gods; depending on the campaign, the followers of a faith may be assured the existence of their god by the fact he's standing right in front of them.

4) Demigods - in the classic sense. The presence of the "children of the gods" in mortal form can likewise lend weight there's some sort of divine being present.

5) Relics and artifacts - these powerful magical items would certainly help to strengthen faith and awareness of a deity if they appear; if there is the existance of lesser relics like those seen in our own middle ages - ones that possess true magic powers, this goes back to #1.

6) Existance of the forces that oppose the deity. The mere existence of supernatural creatures can easily enforce faith that the deity is real. If demons exist, surely the god that punished them must exist - at least in the minds of most mortals.

 

[Oryan77]

So, really, what proof is there for the "common commoner" that the gods are real

The Athar in the Planescape setting have been saying this for years.
You would make a good faction member!