Gods, planes, afterlife, and the common man

[Alzrius]

Alzirus, I think your quote overstates the issue by quite a bit, but the basic point is still valid.

Umbarn, the article wasn't written to address this specific point, but was more of a "magical worldview" piece. I agree that it does basically intersect with the main idea here, though.

 

[Umbran]

1) Divine magic is real; there's really no denying that when a cleric utters a prayer, he gets results.

That the magic happens is demonstrable. But, from a commoner's view, there isn't a whole lot of difference between a wizard mumbling some words and waving his hands with a lump of bat guano, and a cleric praying.

2) Arcane magic can't heal or bring back the dead (other than undead). Only those professing the existence of a god seem to have the ability to return the dead to life, heal wounds and cure other maladies.

Not necessarily true, depending on what rules you are using, and how you interpret the abstract hit points. In 4e, anyone in the "leader" role can probably help you recover hit points. In 3e, bards (arcane spellcasters) got Cure Light Wounds, and I think there were psionic healing disciplines as well.

By core 3e rules, you don't actually need a god to be a spellcasting cleric. A person can profess allegiance to ideas of his domains, and get the spells. So, technically, it may be that gods do not exist, though the clerics think they do.

This is not to say that belief won't happen. Merely that these things are not going to be much "proof" to someone who really wants to question.

 

[coyote6]

Also, stuff like limited wish and wish let arcane casters get around those pesky "divine only" limitations, and cast cure spells and bring the dead back to life.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

In one of my past campaigns the common people believed the gods existed because they were told they existed by others who believed that it was a fact such as priests of the gods and worshipers who had experienced the workings of the gods. Their facts were supported by both their experience and their belief.

The heathens who believed in gods other than there own were clearly being duped by evil creatures intent on turning people away from the true gods.

Of course the heathens said the same thing about those who believed in the "true gods."

The only one who knows of the "facts" about the existence of the gods is the Supreme Being of the world: The DM. For everyone else there is only faith.

 

[Lord Zack]

In my campaign characters know the gods exist because they and they're servants show up and do stuff. The god of war might fight alongside soldiers on the battlefield, the god of magic might show up to record a magical discovery, the god of healing might show up and help stave off a plague, and so forth. So far none of my player's characters have actually met a god, but it's a possibility.

 

[LostSoul]

A D&D-world atheist can say simply, "there are no gods." How can a D&D cleric demonstrate he's wrong?

Slay Living + Raise Dead.

edit: This discussion gives me an idea for an arcane religion.

There's a religious order out there, dedicated to a real god or not. They have a holy text, a big spellbook (manual of infinite planes?). They call their arcane spells "prayers". Their spellbooks are called prayerbooks. They spend time "praying" to get their spells back - I can easily see wizards memorizing their spells by rocking back and forth, uttering strange ritual phrases and mantras (bling blong, blongy bling, bling bling blong) that help them keep their concentration.

Wizards who claim there is no arcane god that powers their magic are hunted down and killed as apostates and heretics.

In my campaign the reverse is actually true - divine magic isn't fuelled by the gods at all, though they pretend it is. The gods created and use religion to keep their hold on what's called "divine" power. Divine spells are couched in prayer to a specific god, but it's the Word of Power hidden in the prayer (plus the will to change reality) that makes it work.

 

[Bullgrit]

Some answers here suggest I'm not getting my question across. This statement in another thread prompted this thread:

in a world with concrete alignment and a guaranteed afterlife
. . .
you know for a fact that when killed an evil creature heads off to one of the evil planes to become anything from sustenance for demons to a demon itself

I've seen this concept mentioned many times over the years, around here.

This idea that people in a D&D world "know" as "fact" that there is an afterlife, there are other planes to which their souls go for reward or punishment. That the gods are real and active.

My question was not based on how do people believe this stuff, but how can they know it for fact?

The discussions on how raise dead-type spells would change a world -- politically, religiously, etc. -- always start with the basic concept of "everyone knows for a fact" how the game rules [spells] work. My point on this is that only the Players sitting around the table know these "facts" because they've read the rule books. The normal people in the game world don't have the mechanics of the universe written down and published for all to read.

Considering how truly rare high-level clerics are (compared to the general population, not compared to PC demographics), and how much such magics cost, the vast majority of people have never had any direct experience with the "realness" of gods, planes, afterlife, and return to life.

I'd even say that the average person doesn't even have an understanding of the alignments. If someone said, "Old Man Jed is Chaotic Neutral," no one would understand what that meant.

So, how can the existance of gods, planes, afterlife, (and alignment, among other things) be commonly known facts in a D&D world? The high-level cleric comes around to town and offers to cast planeshift for the gathered folks? "I can take you to my god right now!"

Yeah, how many folks are gonna take that trip?

Bullgrit

 

[hamishspence]

I'd even say that the average person doesn't even have an understanding of the alignments. If someone said, "Old Man Jed is Chaotic Neutral," no one would understand what that meant.

I've seen a few people say that, accoding to the PHB, alignment is alwys something you recognize- whether you choose it or not. A LE person always knows they are LE- and anyone who's evil but believes they are non-evil, or good- is insane, since sane D&D characters are always aware of their own alignment.

I found that line of argument very unconvincing- especially since it's directly contradicted by numerous splatbooks.

 

[coyote6]

They'd be commonly known because, despite the relative rarity of higher level spellcasters, there are spellcasters around. Some of them will cast spells to summon avatars, commune with their gods, travel the planes, return the long-dead to life (with tales of the afterlife), and so forth, and the stories of those events will spread. If you hear tells of men walking the paths of the gods' homes, and then a student of that guy shows up and works miracles (i.e., casts cure spells), why wouldn't you believe the larger story, when it fits the rest of the world you have seen?

If you're asking "how does the 'common' (aka Joe Peasant) person know -- as in have evidence of the truth of -- that these things are true" -- well, they don't. Joe Peasant doesn't know all sorts of things. He doesn't know that dragons are really real, he doesn't know that jumping from a mountain ledge will probably prove fatal, he doesn't even know that a composite longbow in the hands of a skilled archer will kill him dead before he can run ten feet. Joe doesn't have personal experience of any of that, after all. He's lived in one tiny area his whole life and not been too far from it, ever.

And if Joe doesn't believe anything he hasn't personally experienced, he's pretty much guaranteed to a yokel, no? "Oh, I'm sure they got walls tall as four men around a city of twenty thousand people -- that's just crazy talk!" "Men flying -- why, they ain't got wings!"

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Yep. The OP is assuming 'know' in the modern, scientific sense. Joe Commoner 'knows' these things in the mideval, superstitious sense. Same word, two different meanings. Ain't English fun?