Gods, planes, afterlife, and the common man

[Thornir Alekeg]

Quite simply, anybody who says that the ordinary people in D&D know that the gods exist as a fact is metagaming because they cannot know it as a fact. It is still belief, possibly supported by direct observation of a healing spell or other divine magic, but they have to take to word of the priests that the magic is the result of the existence of the gods.

The only other way is if the gods themselves have used their power to make the people "know" that they exist, so that they do not have to rely upon faith.

 

[coyote6]

Quite simply, anybody who says that the ordinary people in D&D know that the gods exist as a fact is metagaming because they cannot know it as a fact.

I don't think that's quite true. One 17th level cleric can gate in his god (said deity willing) to work some miracles up close and personal. Everybody present (including the ordinary people that are bystanders) then knows for a fact that that god is real.

Now, it isn't likely that all people can personally know for a fact that gods exist, outside of worldwide divine demonstration. Then again, it isn't likely that all people know any one thing for a fact, outside of certain basics (stuff like "drop something and it falls" -- and in magical D&D land, even that may not be true everywhere, all the time, so even that has caveats; never mind people with disabilities that mess with cognition). So, saying, "they can't know" is isn't really saying much at all. They can believe, with a high degree of confidence that they actually know.

 

[Umbran]

I don't think that's quite true. One 17th level cleric can gate in his god (said deity willing) to work some miracles up close and personal. Everybody present (including the ordinary people that are bystanders) then knows for a fact that that god is real.

Epistomology - how do we know what we know?

Some guy casts a spell. A gate opens and something steps through. The guy and the something both say it is a god (or the avatar of a god). Some miracles happen, and it goes away.

How you do know that the thing that stepped through the gate was the source of the spellcaster's power? How do you know that the thing that stepped through the gate even existed before it stepped through? How does an observer know the magic didn't create the entity that stepped through?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Epistomology - how do we know what we know?

Some guy casts a spell. A gate opens and something steps through. The guy and the something both say it is a god (or the avatar of a god). Some miracles happen, and it goes away.

How you do know that the thing that stepped through the gate was the source of the spellcaster's power? How do you know that the thing that stepped through the gate even existed before it stepped through? How does an observer know the magic didn't create the entity that stepped through?

Good point and even if the entity that stepped through the gate was the cource of the casters power was it a god?

In general in a fantasy realm the majority of people would go along with the accepted general theory in that culture.
Wither it is true is a different matter and perhaps something that only the DM has certain knowledge.

 

[coyote6]

Now you have to define "god".

But first, define "define".

 

[Bullgrit]

Quite simply, anybody who says that the ordinary people in D&D know that the gods exist as a fact is metagaming because they cannot know it as a fact.

This is kind of what I'm getting at.

I'm not talking about accepting or being suspicious of presented evidence -- cleric casts gate, god steps through, miracles performed. I'm meaning, let's not conflate our metagame knowledge of the D&D world with an NPC's knowledge of his world.

Do common commoners know for fact that ghosts exist?

That werewolves exist?

That dopplegangers exist?

Drow?

The above all do truly exist in the standard D&D game world, but we know this because we have the books -- purely metagame knowledge. What if we could see the rule book for our Real World, and we saw the stats for space alien Greys? Or saw the rule mechanic for Karma?

Bullgrit

 

[UngainlyTitan]

This is kind of what I'm getting at.

I'm not talking about accepting or being suspicious of presented evidence -- cleric casts gate, god steps through, miracles performed. I'm meaning, let's not conflate our metagame knowledge of the D&D world with an NPC's knowledge of his world.

Do common commoners know for fact that ghosts exist?

That werewolves exist?

That dopplegangers exist?

Drow?

The above all do truly exist in the standard D&D game world, but we know this because we have the books -- purely metagame knowledge. What if we could see the rule book for our Real World, and we saw the stats for space alien Greys? Or saw the rule mechanic for Karma?

Bullgrit

I have a standing rule not to tackle philosphy sober but I'll bend it a little, what do you mean by know?
Does a virus exist in the real world? or if you are a microbiologist and have examined virus in an electron microscope or sequenced their DNA, some other scientific phenomena that is outside your field of expertise and for which you do not have to background to do the experiements or the background theory, neutrinos, charm quarks or as I noted above quantum entanglement.
If you are willing to accept such phenomena on the basis of peer reviewed literature from the scientific community then in a place such as the Forgotten Realms where anyone with the lack of caution to actually go looking for the gods can quite easily get got up in their machinactions and where high level wizards can become gods and/or have sex with them then gods exist.
Now, Ebberon for instance, is a different matter, there even though there are clerics no one knows for sure.

Now, if you are arguing that even Elminister cannot have been sure that Mystra was a god, then I think that you are getting into silly territory.
For any practicle purpose a God is a godlike being.

If in Star Trek Q decided that the people of the Federation would worship him or die (and no similar or equavilent being stopped him) then in pretty short order Q would be worshipped by the surivors and they would be pretty convinced that Q was a god.

 

[Kaodi]

Epistomology - how do we know what we know?

Some guy casts a spell. A gate opens and something steps through. The guy and the something both say it is a god (or the avatar of a god). Some miracles happen, and it goes away.

How you do know that the thing that stepped through the gate was the source of the spellcaster's power? How do you know that the thing that stepped through the gate even existed before it stepped through? How does an observer know the magic didn't create the entity that stepped through?

Once you are getting to that level of discussion, I think it is about time you stop worrying about D&D and start worrying just about the Epistemology. Those questions are not so easily answered in the real world, so it seems silly to think about them in the context of D&D before you have thought about them by themselves.

In the end, what a commoner " knows " is irrelevant. What they are justified in believing is what matters. A commoner may not be justified in believing there are gods in many cases, but they are definitely justified in believing it is probably safer to assume that there are.

 

[Umbran]

In the end, what a commoner " knows " is irrelevant. What they are justified in believing is what matters.

I don't even know if what he's justified in believing matters too much. Part of what this discussion reveals is that what is "justifiable" isn't clear.

I can say I believe that the acceleration due to gravity felt near the Earths' surface is 9.81 meters per second-squared. I have personally measured it many times (running freshman physics labs). But, prior to the invention of sufficiently accurate and precise timepieces, this level of justification of belief simply wasn't available.

You can use what is justifiable as a guideline for what the majority of folks in the campaign world believe, if you want. But honestly, you don't have to - there's plenty of clear real-world examples of people believing things that weren't what we'd call justified today.

The above all do truly exist in the standard D&D game world, but we know this because we have the books -- purely metagame knowledge.

Well, depending on your edition, there's skills in the game that tell you what characters know. Your player knows that drow exist. You roll a Knowledge skill to see if your character knows.

Some number of NPCs have some number of points in those skills. Pick the number of people who have the skill, and how well-trained they are in it, and you now know what the commoners do and don't know.

 

[Bullgrit]

Now, if you are arguing that even Elminister cannot have been sure that Mystra was a god, then I think that you are getting into silly territory.

I am not saying anything even remotely similar to this. At all. And it's driving me crazy how many people are responding as though this was the issue.

Bullgrit