Gods, planes, afterlife, and the common man
- Thread starter Bullgrit
- Start date
Well then what are you arguing?
Stepping back, so we have established that Elminster knows Mystra exists that she is a god.
Now, does El know that Lord Ao exists (I am assuming that he has not met him, I'm not that up on Realms Lore) based on Mystra's word on it?
If El writes on his relationship with Mystra in a widely published book can the reader know that Mystra exists based on Elminster's word?
hamishspence
Adventurer
He's met Ao- in the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy.
Bullgrit
Adventurer
For example, (which I brought up earlier):
When someone posts something like this:
They are saying our metagame knowledge of the D&D world is in-game knowledge for the NPCs. I'm arguing that most (99.99---%) in-game NPCs do not have this information in absolute factual form -- they don't have the rule book on how the universe works.
For another example: In AD&D1, the DMG said there was a 5% chance of a demon lord showing up when his name is mentioned aloud. (I presume this idea came from the old Real World superstition that you shouldn't mention the devil's name for fear of drawing his attention to you.)
Now, there is a big difference between in-game superstition about speaking a demon's name aloud, and an NPC knowing for an absolute fact how the universal mechanics work.
Another example that I mentioned earlier, is ghosts. Ghosts exist in D&D -- they're right there in the book for us to see. But do people in the D&D world know this as fact?
Would a D&D NPC saying, "There's no such thing as ghosts," be dismissing a superstition, or would he be simply insane for denying the existence of something that does, in fact, exist. Is "There's no such thing as ghosts," the same as, "There's no such thing as trees"? Or elves?
Bullgrit
Game Mechanics aside:
Why do most people assume that the gods only talk to clerics/deivine casters?
I think gods can and will comunicate with their flock, mostly because they can. I deem it very possible that there will be a lot of cases of prophecies, dream warnings, even some personal communication between mortal and god beside spells.
Then there are miracles and divine intervention. They tend to happen when there are real gods about.
Lastly, the gods form. When a sun god is the actual sun and a moon goddess is the moon, then there is nothing to disbelief.
How did Terry Prathcett say it? Nobody dies faster than an atheist, denying the gods while outside in a thunderstorm.
Why do most people assume that the gods only talk to clerics/deivine casters?
I think gods can and will comunicate with their flock, mostly because they can. I deem it very possible that there will be a lot of cases of prophecies, dream warnings, even some personal communication between mortal and god beside spells.
Then there are miracles and divine intervention. They tend to happen when there are real gods about.
Lastly, the gods form. When a sun god is the actual sun and a moon goddess is the moon, then there is nothing to disbelief.
How did Terry Prathcett say it? Nobody dies faster than an atheist, denying the gods while outside in a thunderstorm.
Psychotic Jim
First Post
I'm just gonna say that how much the common man knows and believes in the gods depends upon the campaign setting, on the level of magic, the activity/presence of gods on the mortal plane, and how much "unjust hardships" the commoners face. Some campaign settings (FR) have a lot more of a deific presence than others (Eberron, Ravenloft).
hamishspence
Adventurer
Power of Faerun mentions this- sometimes the gods communicate rather dramatically- flashy visual manifestations.
Ok this I could go along with.
Now, In this case I do not think that it would take long for people to become aware of this fact if it were in fact an iron law of the Universe
Ok the NPC might not know it was a 5% chance but if it happened that often it would become common knowledge and people would stop uttering names that got them into trouble. Until of course the names became forgotten and then recovered by some meddeling adventures and the cycle began again.
In some D&D settings Ghosts appear to be pretty common, Hammerfast is pretty thick with ghosts on the other hand Athas one could be justified in not believing in trees.
You still have not said what you consider proof, which I was attempting to discover in the questions I have previously asked that you decline to answer.
Does it require direct observation or can written and oral tesitmony from diverse sources constitute sufficient evidence that a phenomena exists.
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Bullgrit
Adventurer
It's not a matter of what I consider proof. Such an answer is irrelevant.ardoughter said:
Imagine a discussion forum, out there, where they discuss playing the game "Real World". Someone starts a point with, "In a world were aliens are real . . ."
"But the people in Real World don't know aliens are real. You only know it from metagame knowledge; because you see their stats in the books."
"Of course the people in Real World know about aliens because of all the evidence -- they've given signs, they interact with the people, etc. What would you consider proof to the people of Real World?"
The idea of this happening often enough for folks to figure out the percentage makes me chuckle.
Test subject: "Orcus. Orcus. Orcus. Orcus. Orcus. Orcus." RRRAAAAWWWWRRRR! CRUSH! BLAST!
Researchers: "OK, how many times did this one say it? Six? Could be a 1 on d6 chance. But he might have just gotten unlucky. Let's keep trying. Bring in the next test subject."
Bullgrit
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
I think "(fairly) easy and reproducable" is the answer to be looking for.
How many people have really seen Africa (or would have the money/time to make a journey), yet know for a fact it exists? Most people rely on the documented evidence of others to "know something for a fact" - the don't have the time or inclination to really test it for themselves*. Especially if they see well-documented evidence of its existence (pictures for Africa, clerical spells for backing up religious texts).
When you can (theoretically) walk into the local church and have a cleric cast Augury to get the answer "Does the afterlife exist?" or "If I'm a bad person will I go to badafterlifeplace?" and you get an answer, that pretty much confirms it.
* Of course, you always have things like the "We never went to the moon" or "They captured aliens at Area 54" that some claim as truth, and others will dismiss as bogus. "Know for a fact" is a tricky thing when it comes down to it - I'd say it's more appropriate "common belief states..."
How many people have really seen Africa (or would have the money/time to make a journey), yet know for a fact it exists? Most people rely on the documented evidence of others to "know something for a fact" - the don't have the time or inclination to really test it for themselves*. Especially if they see well-documented evidence of its existence (pictures for Africa, clerical spells for backing up religious texts).
When you can (theoretically) walk into the local church and have a cleric cast Augury to get the answer "Does the afterlife exist?" or "If I'm a bad person will I go to badafterlifeplace?" and you get an answer, that pretty much confirms it.
* Of course, you always have things like the "We never went to the moon" or "They captured aliens at Area 54" that some claim as truth, and others will dismiss as bogus. "Know for a fact" is a tricky thing when it comes down to it - I'd say it's more appropriate "common belief states..."
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