Good rewards and penalties for winning or losing a skill challenge

[Noumenon]

I think that failure should be tied to whatever action failed.

If you look for a shortcut through the mountains and fail, you get lost in the mountains. If you keep failing, you'll get lost in the mountains. Whatever "being lost" means.

Or you could have success be tied to whatever action succeeded. If the guy who tried Nature checks to climb Caradhras failed but the guy who tried Dungeoneering to go through the caves succeeded, well then the next round of rolls is about Moria. If the next round has a History success that finds an abandoned dwarven mine running under the whole mountain and a Stealth failure that wakes up the goblins, then the next round is about running into the history of what made the dwarves leave. Then you get your third failure trying to Intimidate a Balrog and the penalty for failing the whole challenge is you get through the mountain, but you lose your NPC wizard...

What works relatively well, imho, is granting the enemies a surprise round, adding terrain that helps the enemies

I like both of these. What kind of terrain can you add other than the classic tipped-over tables?

 

[I'm A Banana]

If you look for a shortcut through the mountains and fail, you get lost in the mountains. If you keep failing, you'll get lost in the mountains. Whatever "being lost" means.

Admittedly, my view might be "harsh," but here is what I say:

If you look for a shortcut through the mountains and fail, you don't get to go through the mountains.

You have to do something else. Go around the mountains. Fly over the mountains. Burrow under the mountains. You can't pass the mountains.

It's like, because the Fellowship of the Ring failed a skill challenge to last through the snowy peaks, they had to visit the old dwarven ruins, which meant, ultimately, Gandalf was lost for a while.

If you fail to get through the mountains, the mountains are a challenge that you cannot overcome. You have to do something else. Something less desirable. It may take more time. It may be more dangerous (higher level foes, without any XP bonus). It may eliminate an important NPC, or you may not be in time to thwart the plot you crossed the mountains to thwart.

Maybe, to mitigate the harshness, let them try again, but only after they have gained a level. Which means that they can't cross it at their current level of skill, and need to gain more skill before they can try again.

But you failed, and that's what happens when you fail. It sucks.

Don't give second chances or alternate ways to achieve success. If you loose, you loose. The most you can do is deal with the consequences of that failure.

 

[GladiusNP]

Noumenon, that's a really good example in Caradhras. Considering the movie version, you can even think of Stealth as the party hid from Saruman's crows, Athletics as Boromir helped the halflings to push through the snow, Acrobatics and Perception for Legolas running across the snow and looking into the storm, Gandalf's Knowledge Arcana to recognize the magical nature of the blizzard.

Speaking to the topic, I wish I had something of my own to recount, butI've only recently returned to RPG's. Subsequently, I haven't had the chance to run (or play) 4e, but have found the Skill Challenge mechanic intriguing. Some great examples here, that I may try to shoehorn somehow onto the older systems I do play.

 

[LostSoul]

Or you could have success be tied to whatever action succeeded. If the guy who tried Nature checks to climb Caradhras failed but the guy who tried Dungeoneering to go through the caves succeeded, well then the next round of rolls is about Moria.

Exactly. The only thing I want to point out is that the action determines the check (and the outcome of the check); you say, "I'm going to take the pass through Caradhras", not "I make a Nature check."

 

[AngryMojo]

I'm currently running a sandbox game, where I ran a skill challenge to find the location of a necromancer who was kidnapping and murdering villagers. If they succeed, they find his evil lair. If they fail, the necromancer catches wind of the investigation and moves on, to be encountered later at a higher level in a more difficult encounter.

I like using skill challenges in this manner for proactive players. Finding adventure is a skill challenge.

 

[LostSoul]

Noumenon, that's a really good example in Caradhras. Considering the movie version, you can even think of Stealth as the party hid from Saruman's crows, Athletics as Boromir helped the halflings to push through the snow, Acrobatics and Perception for Legolas running across the snow and looking into the storm, Gandalf's Knowledge Arcana to recognize the magical nature of the blizzard.

That's actually an interesting sequence if you look at it as a skill challenge.

I.
1. The PCs decide that they are going to go through the pass by Caradhras.
2. The DM thinks, well, who's going to stop them? Saruman, that's who. This could work as a skill challenge.
3. The DM sets the Complexity and the level*.
4. The DM sets the scene: "Crows, blah blah blah."
5. The PCs take actions. "We hide."
6. The players roll. They fail.
7. The DM determines the outcome. Saruman knows where they are heading.

II.
4. The DM sets the scene: Travelling through the snowy pass, blah blah blah. Arcane winds, blah blah blah. Avalanche, watch out!
5. The PCs take actions. Gandalf tries to out-magic Saruman. (Magic works differently in Middle-Earth; in 4E, maybe they're both trying to Control Weather - in which case, Gandalf is rolling Nature.) Yes, Gandalf is probably the only PC who could do anything in this situation. Sometimes that's the case.
6. The players roll. They fail.
7. The DM determines the outcome. An avalanche blocking the pass.

At this point I think the PCs say, "Screw it, let's hit Moria." They are no longer contesting with Saruman but instead the Goblins and Balrog in the Deep. Basically, they abandon that skill challenge. Which is cool, that's something you need to allow.

* - I set the DC based on what the PCs are going up against. Sometimes I use Will, sometimes a level-based DC (based on the level of the opposition), sometimes passive skills.

For I.6, I'd use the magic crow's Passive Perception as the DC. Maybe there's a ritual that uses Saruman's Arcana skill; in that case, I'd use his Passive Arcana.

For II.6, I'd use Saruman's Passive Arcana.

If they had trudged on through the avalanche and I didn't know what Saruman could do, I'd set the DC based on Caradhras' level - probably Hard, since, you know, avalanche.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Exactly. The only thing I want to point out is that the action determines the check (and the outcome of the check); you say, "I'm going to take the pass through Caradhras", not "I make a Nature check."

I'm a big believer in designing skill challenges this way. At the very least, every skill challenge I run uses this approach. I wish published adventures would lay out their skill challenges by narrative action, not by skill.

 

[LostSoul]

Admittedly, my view might be "harsh," but here is what I say:

If you look for a shortcut through the mountains and fail, you don't get to go through the mountains.

You have to do something else. Go around the mountains. Fly over the mountains. Burrow under the mountains. You can't pass the mountains.

I half-agree and half-disagree.

You want to allow each character their full range of (appropriate) actions at any time. (Appropriate actions, no lassoing the moon.) If you get lost in the mountains, is there anything stopping you from finding a trail? No. So yeah, you can try again. (You might be too late to stop the slavers you're chasing from reaching the crossroads, though.)

You want each failure to sting, though - if there's an avalanche blocking the pass and you, as a player, can't think of any way through it, then you're stuck. Each failure is going to inform the actions you can take and things will play out naturally.

I like the way Burning Wheel deals with this: When the situation changes enough. You failed to cross the mountains because an avalanche blocked the pass? Wait for summer.

When does the situation change enough? That requires a judgement call from the DM. That's fine, it's a good thing - it allows the DM creative input into the game.

 

[LostSoul]

I'm a big believer in designing skill challenges this way. At the very least, every skill challenge I run uses this approach. I wish published adventures would lay out their skill challenges by narrative action, not by skill.

I wish they would just set up the opposition and leave it to the players and DM to figure out what makes sense. The way they do it, it's only suitable for when you are really constrained in the actions you can take - the recent Dungeon article about running a race over rooftops is a good one. If you want to take this path, this is what's in your way.

For a social skill challenge, it's laughably horrible. What they should do is describe the motivations of the NPC and some personal quirks or history.

One of the last skill challenges I ran saw a bunch of PCs, who had just stepped through a portal, try to get past an Eladrin guard into the Feywild.

Eladrin Guard:
- Is aloof
- Bears a century-old grudge against elves as though it all happened yesterday
- Doesn't want anyone to come through the portal
- Looks down on anyone who comes from the natural world, especially elves
- A douche, but not evil
- Over-confident
- Is willing to resort to violence, but doesn't want to kill

Set the complexity to how dedicated he is to his position; set the level to his level; play it out.

(In that example the players got irritated because he was acting irrationally; I thought that was the point - an aloof, immortal fey bearing a grudge isn't going to be the most rational of actors. Talk about clashing expectations.)

 

[Starfox]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. If the consequence is "you get lost in the mountains and have a bunch of random level appropriate encounters before finding you way" then you shouldn't do a SC. No meaningful consequences. The examples you give above are good "story consequences" I was talking about.

Since only successful skill challenges earn rewards, having skill challenges to avoid fights works very well. The thing is, if the skill challenge and the encounter has the same xp budget, you get the same xp wether you succeed at the challenge, or fail the challenge and play out the fight. Only the fight take a lot longer to play out at the table and can consume some resources. The successful skill challenge is a free lunch, comparatively.