Goodman rebuttal

[Rechan]

Asking for evidence of whether or not 4E is doing well is like asking for empirical evidence about whether god exists. No matter how much you blather about it, the evidence is not
going to arrive.

Even if the evidence arrived, it would still be argued with.

WotC could publish their sales figures, and the response would be either:

1) Oh yeah? What was 3e's sales figures, HUH?
2) They're probably giving fake figures to cover how meager 4e is selling.

 

[xechnao]

Even if the evidence arrived, it would still be argued with.

WotC could publish their sales figures, and the response would be either:

1) Oh yeah? What was 3e's sales figures, HUH?
2) They're probably giving fake figures to cover how meager 4e is selling.

You have gone way too far in the other side of the fence right now

 

[Invisible Stalker]

Even if the evidence arrived, it would still be argued with.

WotC could publish their sales figures, and the response would be either:

1) Oh yeah? What was 3e's sales figures, HUH?
2) They're probably giving fake figures to cover how meager 4e is selling.

I get that hilarity every month when they publish the sales figures for comic books.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Even if the evidence arrived, it would still be argued with.

WotC could publish their sales figures, and the response would be either:

1) Oh yeah? What was 3e's sales figures, HUH?
2) They're probably giving fake figures to cover how meager 4e is selling.

Thats what happens when you hold an opinion so strongly that reality can't change it.

 

[scourger]

Well, that was an interesting read. Makes me want to visit more game stores. Seriously. 47? In half a year? That's impressive. Like I said, makes me want to visit more stores.

 

[Bumbles]

Thats what happens when you hold an opinion so strongly that reality can't change it.

Are you sure it doesn't warp the fabric of the universe?

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Wow

I'm glad that Goodman Games is doing well. The truth is, they have far fewer 3rd party products to compete with this time around, so even if the 4E pie is smaller than the 3E pie was, they're getting a bigger piece of it. I am glad that the 4E folks are getting support from at least one of the good 3rd party developers.

I think I disagree with his analysis of the importance of FLGS stores, though. Sure, we all got exposed to RPGS via them, but that was a generation before google, facebook, twitter, and the omnipresent connectivity we all have with each other today. I think it's a mistake to extrapolate from the past in this case and think that it is predictive.

To contest one of his example -- if I moved to a new city (and I do this quite a bit, actually) I wouldn't go to the FLGS to get players -- I'd go to EnWorld gamers seeking gamers. Or to the paizo boards. Or to the WoTC boards I guess. Let's say I moved somewhere wierd -- like Buenos Aires, Argentina. Actually, that isn't hypothetical at all -- I did just this in 2008. I found gamers there at de Rol :: Comunidad de Roleros . This site was suggested to me by a poster on the Necromancer Games board, who lived in Argentina! I imagine that finding gamers here in LA on the web (I moved here 3 weeks ago) won't be too difficult.

Honestly, with regards to 4E I believe both Joe Goodman and Clark Peterson . I don't find what they write to be contradictory at all. They're in different situations.

Ken

 

[Cadfan]

Asking for evidence of whether or not 4E is doing well is like asking for empirical evidence about whether god exists. No matter how much you blather about it, the evidence is not
going to arrive. Using the "there is no evidence" argument when there never will be evidence is discussing things in bad faith. "There is no evidence" does not disprove anybody's opinions or statements given the circumstances of these discussions. Using this argument shows a lack of a real counter argument.

I have certainly noticed a "god of the gaps" parallel- defining the success or failure of 4e in terms of whether it meets Hasbro's secret, unpublished sales projections basically defines the matter into an unanswerable state. One might wonder at the motivations of someone who considers that unobtainable information to be the only acceptable evidence, who (presumably) knows he'll never receive that information, and yet continues to revive this debate on a weekly basis.

 

[Cadfan]

I think I disagree with his analysis of the importance of FLGS stores, though. Sure, we all got exposed to RPGS via them, but that was a generation before google, facebook, twitter, and the omnipresent connectivity we all have with each other today. I think it's a mistake to extrapolate from the past in this case and think that it is predictive.

The thing that I think gaming stores do that the internet does not is connect fans of one realm of gaming with fans from others. You can hang out at ENWorld for years and never even know what a eurogame is, or never hear about Infinity, or never consider whether you might enjoy playing ASL. The internet can be awfully balkanized.

Gaming stores can be as well, but they don't have to be. They at least offer the potential for cross polination between gaming communities.

 

[xechnao]

I have certainly noticed a "god of the gaps" parallel- defining the success or failure of 4e in terms of whether it meets Hasbro's secret, unpublished sales projections basically defines the matter into an unanswerable state. One might wonder at the motivations of someone who considers that unobtainable information to be the only acceptable evidence, who (presumably) knows he'll never receive that information, and yet continues to revive this debate on a weekly basis.

Because it is also impossible to really know if 4e is going strong and yet people say so. Marketing is a reality that comes to fill the gaps of knowledge. But if one does marketing expect some people to question and rightly so. In the end this is how democracy works too.