got my Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (mild spoilers)

[Wycen]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's good that there's a bad guy who has clearly defined goals. My problem is; the PCs do not have clearly defined goals.

I don't yet understand A: why the players get involved in the first place. Some Drow attack, the players find a note from or to a guy in Sigil, but so what? What horrible thing will happen if the PCs don't pursue it?

B: When the adventure is done, what will the PCs have prevented, and how? They don't kill Lolth, I presume.

The answer to A is something I can't answer because I too have to wonder if my group would really care. Of course the answer to B is why they might care but it seems like a lot of "ifs" involved.

By going into the Demonweb, the players might foil a plan to create a Demon Council which would then be able to unite different demon armies to fight against the Upper Planes, (though I see no reason why it couldn't be used to fight anything else). The PC's might simply kill some demonic aspects. They might fuel the fires between demon lords who already hate each other. They might be in for a TPK. They might reveal Grazz'ts plot and gain his eire while Grazz't himself gains the emnity of various other demonic critters.

Or they might just get to kill a lot of monsters and take their treasure.

 

[mattcolville]

The answer to A is something I can't answer because I too have to wonder if my group would really care. Of course the answer to B is why they might care but it seems like a lot of "ifs" involved.

By going into the Demonweb, the players might foil a plan to create a Demon Council which would then be able to unite different demon armies to fight against the Upper Planes, (though I see no reason why it couldn't be used to fight anything else). The PC's might simply kill some demonic aspects. They might fuel the fires between demon lords who already hate each other. They might be in for a TPK. They might reveal Grazz'ts plot and gain his eire while Grazz't himself gains the emnity of various other demonic critters.

Or they might just get to kill a lot of monsters and take their treasure.

Hm...well that's certainly a very OD&D notion. "The party goes here because that's where the adventure happens" and "they kill these guys because they're evil and in the module."

I was hoping for something with a bit more narrative verisimilitude.

 

[Felon]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's good that there's a bad guy who has clearly defined goals. My problem is; the PCs do not have clearly defined goals.

I don't yet understand A: why the players get involved in the first place. Some Drow attack, the players find a note from or to a guy in Sigil, but so what? What horrible thing will happen if the PCs don't pursue it?

See, the premise is that Graz has spread false rumors about Lolth readying her armies for an impending invasion onto the material plane, which whips the drow into a frenzy and they go hog-wild launching attacks all over the place. The players are supposed to be motivated to stop this.

But the author doesn't want the players to get all psyched-up preparing for all-out war with drow on a field of glory, only to find themselves in Sigil doing standard-issue fetch quests and engaging in minor skirmishes. So, there's a dichotomy there: the DM's gotta stress the threat the drow present, but not in a way that will induce the players to do anything more than trundle off to do some investigation in the outliying boonies, whereupon they will be conveniently beset at the first inn they stop at.

In all fairness, though, they do have a sidebar providing various motivations for the various types of parties there are out there (moral motivations, financial motivations, etc) in the first chapter.

 

[Felon]

The major thing that bugs me about this is that a huge portion of the scenario hinges on the PCs doing a whole bunch of work for a particular NPC, but the very first encounter features

Spoiler

the PCs being emphatically warned off trusting this very NPC... and correctly, as well

! Surely that can't be a good idea?

That encounter makes precious little sense. The rats are described as simultaneously knowing about the PC's interest in foiling the drow and their role in the war against Lolth (which is more than the PC's know at this point), yet not knowing the PC's well enough to trust them--to the point where they attack if they're ignored.

And does it really take a DC 30 Spot check to notice that all of the thousands of rats around you have exposed brains?

 

[mattcolville]

See, the premise is that Graz has spread false rumors about Lolth readying her armies for an impending invasion onto the material plane, which whips the drow into a frenzy and they go hog-wild launching attacks all over the place. The players are supposed to be motivated to stop this.

But the author doesn't want the players to get all psyched-up preparing for all-out war with drow on a field of glory, only to find themselves in Sigil doing standard-issue fetch quests and engaging in minor skirmishes. So, there's a dichotomy there: the DM's gotta stress the threat the drow present, but not in a way that will induce the players to do anything more than trundle off to do some investigation in the outliying boonies, whereupon they will be conveniently beset at the first inn they stop at.

In all fairness, though, they do have a sidebar providing various motivations for the various types of parties there are out there (moral motivations, financial motivations, etc) in the first chapter.

Yeah, I read those. I think I prefer "We have to act, otherwise..." Rather than "We have to act because there's lots of loot/xp/random evil guys to fight."

I like the Red Hand of Doom there. "There's a big, feck-off army about to crush us all." Mind you, I didn't like the "the PCs must now flee for their lives" because that almost never works in my experience, but it's a minor flaw compared to "we have no real motivation."

 

[teitan]

This was a huge mistake. When we saw the preview, it was also admitted as a mistake by WotC, but not corrected in the book. It is also not the first major mistake we've seen in recent WotC products - witness the page backgrounds in "Scourge of the Howling Horde".

I won't boycott over this one thing, obviously. But it's starting to look like a pattern, and if it is a pattern, then I might boycott over that. It strikes me as only being good sense to stop buying products if the quality isn't there.

I can understand being upset over errors, the original post seemed a little extreme but I can understand being upset. But maybe the book had already went to press when WOTC posted the preview? I am not bothered by the mistakes in WOTC books, they are going to be there and they are certainly better than some of White Wolf's errors like Page XXX etc. We've been spoiled by WOTC over the years so we focus on their errors and with other companies we are starting to see a lot of people "waiting for the second print"... C&C, MnM, Conan etc. all have major, major errors in their first printings.

 

[delericho]

I can understand being upset over errors, the original post seemed a little extreme but I can understand being upset.

I had just replied to a thread talking about boycotting WotC over the Dragon/Dungeon thing (where I won't). So, my comment in this thread was somewhat out of context.

But maybe the book had already went to press when WOTC posted the preview?

Quite possibly.

I am not bothered by the mistakes in WOTC books, they are going to be there and they are certainly better than some of White Wolf's errors like Page XXX etc. We've been spoiled by WOTC over the years so we focus on their errors and with other companies we are starting to see a lot of people "waiting for the second print"... C&C, MnM, Conan etc. all have major, major errors in their first printings.

I don't own any of those books, in at least one case because of the errors in that first print.

However, I try to judge each company on it's own merits; "They're better than company X" really means nothing to me, since I don't have to spend my money with any of these companies. As for WotC, they produced some excellent products last year, as I've commented on in the past. They've also made some horrible mistakes, which I also comment on. I'm not actually in either a pro-WotC or anti-WotC camp.

 

[Garnfellow]

I hadn't planned to pick this up, even though I really like Baur's work. My PCs are 12th level right now, just kicked ass in the Vault of the Drow, are about to take on the Kingdom of the Ghouls, and will probably be 13th or 14th level by the time they're done that, and ready for the Harrowing.

However, I had a chance to browse through a copy last night, and what I saw was enough to get my to order it. I am rather concerned about some of the reported editing problems, like with the cambion. And it sounds like the connective narrative is a little complicated and tenuous in places. But a few things won me over:

1. This is a dang good looking book. Normally I am a very utilitarian kind of guy, but this was nice enough to make me interested.

2. An unexpected side benefit of the new delve format? Individual encounters can be more easily peeled out of the adventure and dropped elsewhere as needed. When I run the Harrowing, I can easily see cherry-picking some of the cooler encounters for when the PCs are in the Demonweb.

Instead of looking at the book as a cohesive adventure, I'm looking at it more as a collection of interesting encounters unified by a theme. In that respect, this seems like a pretty useful tool for my needs.

 

[teitan]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's good that there's a bad guy who has clearly defined goals. My problem is; the PCs do not have clearly defined goals.

I don't yet understand A: why the players get involved in the first place. Some Drow attack, the players find a note from or to a guy in Sigil, but so what? What horrible thing will happen if the PCs don't pursue it?

B: When the adventure is done, what will the PCs have prevented, and how? They don't kill Lolth, I presume.

I thought the DM's job was to tailor these adventures to their parties and provide the motivation for them since the writers can not know the DM's party. I've yet to really see an adventure give a strong hook for DM's to use to get players to want to follow the adventure, I always have to provide it. First level, easy, they want to go on an adventure but after that... urmmm.