Grab and Grapple

[JBeatnik]

I'm new here, been lurking for awhile, but am new to posting. Long time 3.5 player/DM, moving to 4th edition. Here's my plight:

I'm looking at the Grab maneuver in combat, which immobilizes the enemy with a STR vs. Reflex check, no opposed strength, none of the grapple fiasco from 3.5. Now, in grapple there was a distinct advantage to it, namely the grappled and grappler could only use a light weapon like a dagger, and a pinned opponent could do nothing at all (except make opposed strength checks to escape)

In the new rules, immobilized doesn't mention you can't make attacks. So I grab a goblin, he can still make attacks against me and me him? Obviously we dont take attacks of opportunity against each other, and I can drag him around, but he also doesn't provide cover or AC bonuses (your friends never provide cover for your enemies, only allies provide cover for you)

I was wondering if anyone had a house rule for "the hostage maneuver", namely using a grab maneuver to immobilize then using a second grab maneuver to move them into your square and using them as a body shield? I thought about house ruling this as a 50% for any attack to hit either the grappled or the grappler.

What do you think?

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I'm new here, been lurking for awhile, but am new to posting. Long time 3.5 player/DM, moving to 4th edition. Here's my plight:

I'm looking at the Grab maneuver in combat, which immobilizes the enemy with a STR vs. Reflex check, no opposed strength, none of the grapple fiasco from 3.5. Now, in grapple there was a distinct advantage to it, namely the grappled and grappler could only use a light weapon like a dagger, and a pinned opponent could do nothing at all (except make opposed strength checks to escape)

In the new rules, immobilized doesn't mention you can't make attacks. So I grab a goblin, he can still make attacks against me and me him? Obviously we dont take attacks of opportunity against each other, and I can drag him around, but he also doesn't provide cover or AC bonuses (your friends never provide cover for your enemies, only allies provide cover for you)

I was wondering if anyone had a house rule for "the hostage maneuver", namely using a grab maneuver to immobilize then using a second grab maneuver to move them into your square and using them as a body shield? I thought about house ruling this as a 50% for any attack to hit either the grappled or the grappler.

What do you think?

I've been thinking about including a 2nd stage to grab that allows you to pin your target, similar to what you're saying up there. I probably won't be DMing for a few months at least, though, so I haven't worried about it too much

My thoughts, though, are: as long as it doesn't overshadow powers, sure, go for it. Powers are supposed to be your forte, if there's a common everyday maneuver that is better, that's not good.

Probably just a second grab would be fine. I don't think it would need any penalties - grab is difficult enough to achieve and maintain as it is. The real question is - does forced movement break your hold on your new body shield, as it does with a normal grab? That's a sticky point, and I'm not sure which side I'd take

 

[Sanzuo]

Naw. I like the mechanic of grappling is simply immobilizing the creature being grappled. In the goblin example it's useful because the goblin can't use goblin tactics to shift around and probably doesn't have a very good athletics skill to escape with. The person who grabs can maintain with a minor action (very handy) and still attack with any 1h weapon. The only thing the person grabbing has to sacrifice is his standard action on that round he grapples.

Also this is a great opportunity to use an action point. Grab with your standard action and use your action point to lay the smackdown.

So many abilities give the creature the ability to maneuver around and generally be a pain in the ass (see; skirmishers). I can totally see a brutish fighter getting fed up with a goblin warrior constantly evading him and just grabbing the little bugger to keep him from strafing around hurling javelins at him.

So in brief; I like grabbing the way it is.

 

[JBeatnik]

i think what i would house rule is that you have severely limited options with a "hostage grab" as I coin it.

1. movement is severely limited, I suppose 1/4th movement or only shifts, since you are dealing with a struggling enemy.
2. If they attempt an escape, you do instant critical damage with weapon (maximized weapon damage), you are holding a weapon to their throat.
3. forced movement forces both of you to move (you occupy the same space)
4. You can make no attacks unless it is against the grabbed enemy.
5. You provide each other with 50% cover (a.k.a. any attacks made on either have a 50% chance to hit either one of you)

Another house rule could be binding. say if you have "hostage grabbed" someone, you could attempt to bind their hands (possiblly a move or minor action, or another grab action)

I'm thinking about expanding the grab maneuver into more specific things, possibly a full on wrestling system (choke hold causes dazed, other moves cause immobilized, blindness) Perhaps something the monk could have bonuses to, though the wrestling maneuvers would be limited in scope (no damage or 1d4 max damage, perhaps monks could use unarmed damage) And adding forced movement with throws in the mix.

 

[JBeatnik]

Also, here's another idea. Can you use a grabbed opponent as an improvised weapon? The rules state that it is 1d4 for smaller objects and 1d8 for larger objects. Was wondering if I could get a ruling on the range increment for a goblin?

 

[Cadfan]

In 3e you tackle the wizard and hold him down, slowly strangling him for 1d3+str damage.

In 4e you grab him by the collar and stab him repeatedly in the stomach. He still casts spells at you, but he can't run away and you do a lot more than 1d3+str.

Its a change, and I bet we'll have wrestling rules sooner or later. But as far as grabbing goes, it does what its designed to do, and does it well.

 

[Sanzuo]

I'm sure you could create a plethora of fan-made powers that all have the criteria "when target is grabbed." They could include a variety of effects like strangulation, using the enemy as cover, making the enemy prone, and so on. The sky's the limit.

 

[JBeatnik]

reading in the PHB, it doesn't specifically state under improvised weapons or the grab combat maneuver how much damage a thrown goblin does. My guess is 1d4 to creature thrown, and 1d4 to whatever it hits (for balance purposes, 1d8 is pretty standard for an attack) and you can use it mostly for flavor purposes. One other this is you can throw 1 square for every +5 of Athletics roll, or +10) So a fighter with +10 athletics rolls an 18 and throws the goblin 5 squares.

Perhaps you could do +5/square for small creatures, +10 for medium creatures. So you could throw a medium sized human 2 squares, but a goblin 4 with a 20 check.

 

[Skyscraper]

reading in the PHB, it doesn't specifically state under improvised weapons or the grab combat maneuver how much damage a thrown goblin does. My guess is 1d4 to creature thrown, and 1d4 to whatever it hits (for balance purposes, 1d8 is pretty standard for an attack) and you can use it mostly for flavor purposes. One other this is you can throw 1 square for every +5 of Athletics roll, or +10) So a fighter with +10 athletics rolls an 18 and throws the goblin 5 squares.

Perhaps you could do +5/square for small creatures, +10 for medium creatures. So you could throw a medium sized human 2 squares, but a goblin 4 with a 20 check.

But then, if you spin the goblin over your head before you throw him, perhaps he'll belch (Close burst 5; STR vs WILL - targe dazed until end of your next turn) or throw up (close burst 2; STR vs FORT - target sickened (save ends)). The effect depends on whether the goblin had lunch recently or not (65% chance he had lunch, the buggers eat all the time!)

The globin's range increment is also debatable. If he belches or throws up while he's in the air (Insight DC 10 by the thrower to anticipate if and when the event occurs), he might gain a + 2 gastric propulsion bonus to range.

Sky

 

[ryryguy]

I'm sure you could create a plethora of fan-made powers that all have the criteria "when target is grabbed." They could include a variety of effects like strangulation, using the enemy as cover, making the enemy prone, and so on. The sky's the limit.

Agreed... I'm planning on making some for a defender monk class.

I may start with an "Improved Grab" feat that allows the grabber to deal Strength damage to the grabbed target, including subsequent rounds if he sustains it. Also considering giving the ability to make a grab as an opportunity attack (either the same feat or maybe a second one).

Also, just a note that there is a "Restrained" condition that seems like it would work really well if you want to get a mechanic like 3.e's "pin". (I would definitely make it accessible only via a power or possibly a feat.)