Grab and Grappling Strike

[Ferghis]

Several questions about grabs and the brawler attack. Firstly, here's the attack.

At-Will
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee touch
Requirement: You must have a hand free.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you grab the target. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn.
Level 21: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Brawler Style: When making an opportunity attack, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack.

1) Can this grab be sustained with a minor action?

2) Is this power governed by the same rules as a grab attack? For example,

2a) Would it gain an attack bonus granted to a grab attack?

2b) Sash of Ensnarement gives you reach 2 for grab attacks. Would it give the power reach?

2c) Grab attacks are limited to one creatures between one size large and one size smaller than the grabber. Is the power so limited?

I searched enworld for posts about this and could not find anything conclusive. This below quote is exemplary. The issue might have been resolved further down the thread in question, but it was a long, long thread, so I didn't read it all. Apologies if my search-fu is weak.

I guess that's one way to interpret it. The other is to say that the Grab attack has the same limitations as any other "grab" as part of another power.

On the target line, please show me where it says this: You can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you. The creature must be within your melee reach (don’t count extra reach from a weapon).

Because what you're saying is that Grab (as a power) means that a specific power, that is not grab, functions like grab even though it's not and has a different target line.

Grab is not a condition: It's an attack.

Grabbed is a condition that results from a successful grab: Show me on the grabbed condition where you cannot hold a creature two size categories bigger than yourself.

 

[mudlock]

1) Can this grab be sustained with a minor action?

2) Is this power governed by the same rules as a grab attack? For example,

2a) Would it gain an attack bonus granted to a grab attack?

2b) Sash of Ensnarement gives you reach 2 for grab attacks. Would it give the power reach?

2c) Grab attacks are limited to one creatures between one size large and one size smaller than the grabber. Is the power so limited?

I'm AFB, but I think I can answer these.

1. No. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn, just like it says.

2. The text you quoted is a good guideline. There is a basic power, called grab; it has rules (which you can find in the rules compendium), part of which is that the target is grabbed by you. And, separately, there is the condition, called grabbed, which can be caused by many powers, among them the power, grab. They are similarly named, but distinct. Reading the rules for the _power_, grab, will tell you how that power works. Reading the rules for the _condition_, grabbed, will tell you how the condition works. So:

2a) Is the bonus for attacks that grab, or for the attack, grab? (Contrast with an item that says "+2 to hit with powers that push" versus and item that says "+2 to hit with tide of iron".)

2b) Is the bonus for attacks that grab, or for the attack, grab? (Also, somewhat unrelated: Note that Grappling Strike is melee touch, not melee weapon, so even if you have a reach weapon (and still have a hand free; whip?) the reach of this attack is still limited to your touch.)

2c) Is that a limitation for attacks that grab, or for the attack, grab? Reading the rules for the power, grab, should clear things up. Any restrictions for a power only apply to that power.

 

[Ferghis]

In your answer to 1, you're saying that the grab that ensues when the power hits is a special grab that can't be renewed or sustained. Ok.

2a) Is the bonus for attacks that grab, or for the attack, grab? (Contrast with an item that says "+2 to hit with powers that push" versus and item that says "+2 to hit with tide of iron".)

Let's use Wrestler's Gloves: "Gain a +1 item bonus to grab attacks... Published in Adventurer's Vault, page(s) 137."

2b) Is the bonus for attacks that grab, or for the attack, grab? (Also, somewhat unrelated: Note that Grappling Strike is melee touch, not melee weapon, so even if you have a reach weapon (and still have a hand free; whip?) the reach of this attack is still limited to your touch.)

The item property of this waist-slot item (not weapon) says: "Gain reach 2 for purposes of grab attacks. Also, you do not need a free hand to make a grab attack. Published in Adventurer's Vault, page(s) 166."

I can't say that I'm certain that "grab attacks" means only the universal power, but I was inclined to think so as well.

2c) Is that a limitation for attacks that grab, or for the attack, grab? Reading the rules for the power, grab, should clear things up. Any restrictions for a power only apply to that power.

It's a limitation for the universal grab attack, as listed under the target: "You can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you. The creature must be within your melee reach (don’t count extra reach from a weapon)."

If what you're saying is correct, then this brawler power (and many other brawler powers) can grab, immobilize and move a gargantuan beast. Until here, I was with you, but that last conclusion is too counter-intuitive. I don't think the designers were being particularly mindful of the brawler's powers when they wrote items and feats that were published earlier. I would love to find something that was absolutely clarifying in RAW, but I'm more hopeful to find some indication as to RAI.

 

[Oldtimer]

1) Can this grab be sustained with a minor action?

No, its duration is explicitly listed in the power.

2) Is this power governed by the same rules as a grab attack?

No, it's not a grab attack.

2a) Would it gain an attack bonus granted to a grab attack?

No, it's not a grab attack.

2b) Sash of Ensnarement gives you reach 2 for grab attacks. Would it give the power reach?

No, it's not a grab attack.

2c) Grab attacks are limited to one creatures between one size large and one size smaller than the grabber. Is the power so limited?

No, it's not a grab attack.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with you OT, from a RAW perspective Grappling Strike is not Grab, they are separate powers. The use of the WORD grab in the text of Grappling Strike is where the confusion arises. The phrase ' and you grab the target.' IMHO is best read as 'The Grabbed condition is applied to the target.' Part of why it may have come out awkwardly is that Grabbed is not really exactly a condition that applies to a specific creature, it is more a relative state existing between TWO creatures, the grabber and the grabbee. It isn't even listed as a condition.

As far as RAI goes... That's a tough one. Do items that enhance grabs work on Grappling Strike? Well, it isn't JUST a grab, it is also a melee attack with a weapon, so are those bonuses really appropriate? A +1 item bonus to attacks is pretty nice if you can apply it to your primary at-will AND all OAs. I think that goes a bit beyond what the gloves were intended to give you, though it isn't going to break the game.

It would seem LOGICAL that grabbing huge creatures would not work. Yet that would be a significant limitation for a character who's main shtick is grabbing stuff. I don't think anyone can make the call on that except the DM at the table who knows the tastes of the group, how often it will come up, and what sort of feel the game has (I can imagine a rather fanciful game where having the fighter swing huge dragons around by the tail and slam them against the floor might be entirely in keeping with the game, but that same thing would feel completely absurd and atmosphere wrecking in a gritty survivalist themed game).

 

[mudlock]

Part of why it may have come out awkwardly is that Grabbed is not really exactly a condition that applies to a specific creature, it is more a relative state existing between TWO creatures, the grabber and the grabbee.

Marked.

Marked works the same way. So it's not like there isn't some precedent for handling this stuff. And there's precedent for being confused, as all the "does my Aegis (or Divine Challenge) apply to all my marks?" threads will attest (thankfully, those have mostly died down now.)

A power can say "you mark the target" or "the target is marked" or "the target is marked by you" and we all know what that means. But since there's no power called simply "mark", that's only a cause of confusion in so far as far as people confuse the powers called "Aegis" and "Divine Challenge," which mark, with other powers that mark. Grab-the-condition, though, has the additional problem that the most-common power that grabs is ACTUALLY CALLED grab as well!

It would seem LOGICAL that grabbing huge creatures would not work. Yet that would be a significant limitation for a character who's main shtick is grabbing stuff.

It's a significant limitation for a sword-and-board fighter whose main stick is to push things around to not be able to push huge creatures, too. And yet, they went to the trouble of including it in the rules for them, but not for the grappler. Curious.

 

[Oldtimer]

It would seem LOGICAL that grabbing huge creatures would not work.

That depends on WHERE you grab them.

 

[pemerton]

The phrase ' and you grab the target.' IMHO is best read as 'The Grabbed condition is applied to the target.' Part of why it may have come out awkwardly is that Grabbed is not really exactly a condition that applies to a specific creature, it is more a relative state existing between TWO creatures, the grabber and the grabbee. It isn't even listed as a condition.

In Essentials, "grabbed" is listed as a condition.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

TBH grab and beeing grabbed is a bit confusing, as the sustain minor is part of the standard grab attack, not the condition itself.

So monsters tha grab need not waste a minor action to sustain it. Automatically all monsters grab until someone escapes.

 

[Ferghis]

TBH grab and beeing grabbed is a bit confusing, as the sustain minor is part of the standard grab attack, not the condition itself.

So monsters tha grab need not waste a minor action to sustain it. Automatically all monsters grab until someone escapes.

This is a great point. Personally, it makes me even more inclined to apply the universal grab attack restrictions and benefits to all grabs. I agree that one could play with the RAW, but it just seems more reasonable to do otherwise. I also agree that neither style would eak the game.

EDIT: well, not all grabbing monsters. There are many that specify how the grab is sustained. But far from all, so the point remains valid.