Grabbed question

[DarkLord Of DForce]

"Effects that End a Grab: If you are affected by a condition that prevents you from taking opportunity actions (such as dazed, stunned, surprised, or unconscious), you immediately let go of a grabbed enemy. If you move away from the creature you’re grabbing, you let go and the grab ends. If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you’re grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, just wanting to clear something up...in our session last night, I was grabbed by a Roper. According to our DM, it has a reach of 10. So I'm grabbed. I use Avengers Demand, and hit. So the creature is pushed 2 squares and then knocked prone. Now, 2 squares is obviously not 10 squares, so I guess the distance wasn't enougth to break the grab, accordoing to the above "out of your reach". However, what about the knockdown? How can it still be holding on after that? Just curious as to the rules on this.

Also, when you failed the first save against the grab, you are then "glued" to the Roper. How do you, or can you break a grab from that?

Thanks, just wanting some clarification there.

 

[Minifig]

You're held/grabbed (use whatever you want to use) until you succeed in your saving throw, even if it is moved or knocked prone. It still holds on to you.. and you haven't broken free.

The reason for this is because it grabbed you prior to the knocking down / moving.

On top of that, you'd have to use a standard action to get up when it's knocked down.. assuming you succeed in your saving throw.

 

[Maddach Urquhart]

Could be wrong, but you don't make saving throws against grabs, you have to escape. Also, I don't recall a roper having an effect on a grab that needs to be saved against either - this could just be DM made? Still, even if you are "glued" after failing the first saving throw, whatever that does, you should be given the oppurtunity to save against it on subsequent turns.

 

[malraux]

"Effects that End a Grab: If you are affected by a condition that prevents you from taking opportunity actions (such as dazed, stunned, surprised, or unconscious), you immediately let go of a grabbed enemy. If you move away from the creature you’re grabbing, you let go and the grab ends. If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you’re grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, just wanting to clear something up...in our session last night, I was grabbed by a Roper. According to our DM, it has a reach of 10. So I'm grabbed. I use Avengers Demand, and hit. So the creature is pushed 2 squares and then knocked prone. Now, 2 squares is obviously not 10 squares, so I guess the distance wasn't enougth to break the grab, accordoing to the above "out of your reach". However, what about the knockdown? How can it still be holding on after that? Just curious as to the rules on this.

Also, when you failed the first save against the grab, you are then "glued" to the Roper. How do you, or can you break a grab from that?

Thanks, just wanting some clarification there.

Being prone does not affect your reach, so knocking the roper prone doesn't help escape.

As to the escaping the grab question, you don't save against the grab, you have to escape from it (See escaping a grab), or damage the tentacle. With the compendium ropers, there's no "glued" condition.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Okay, thanks for the replies.

I have to admit I'm still puzzled and confused. If, according to the replies here, the only way to get out of a grap is to use a standard action and escape, then what does this part of the "Grab" description apply to?

"If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you’re grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends"

I mean, is everyone saying that the person who is grabbed can't do a push, pull, or slide? If so, why not? You're allowed to continue attacking so why wouldn't that work? Teleport works to end a grab, as far as I know - would it not work if it was initiated by the person who was grabbed? Up until now, I've never took grabbed to mean incapaciated as well.

Thanks, and sorry if I'm being dense here...

 

[DracoSuave]

Okay, thanks for the replies.

I have to admit I'm still puzzled and confused. If, according to the replies here, the only way to get out of a grap is to use a standard action and escape, then what does this part of the "Grab" description apply to?

"If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you’re grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends"

Well, if you're one square away with something with reach 10 grabbing you... this isn't a helpful clause. But... if you're 9 squares away, then if the roper gets pushed 11 squares away from you this is very helpful.

For the post part tho... most grabby things have reaches considerably less than 10. So this part kicks in a lot more often than you'd think.

I mean, is everyone saying that the person who is grabbed can't do a push, pull, or slide? If so, why not? You're allowed to continue attacking so why wouldn't that work? Teleport works to end a grab, as far as I know - would it not work if it was initiated by the person who was grabbed? Up until now, I've never took grabbed to mean incapaciated as well.

You can't shift, and you cannot push or pull yourself (because you cannot move towards or away from yourself) but you can slide yourself, and that works fine. Shifts don't work (you're immobilized) but teleport works fine.

Thanks, and sorry if I'm being dense here...

Not at all, these are very good questions.

 

[OnlineDM]

I have to admit I'm still puzzled and confused. If, according to the replies here, the only way to get out of a grap is to use a standard action and escape, then what does this part of the "Grab" description apply to?

Here's how it works once you're grabbed.

• On your turn, you may use a move action (not a standard action) to try the Escape action (page 243 of the rules compendium). You make your choice of either an Athletics check against the grabber's Fortitude defense, or an Acrobatics check against the grabber's Reflex defense. If the Escape action succeeds, you are no longer grabbed (though if you don't quickly move out of there - maybe trading your standard action for a move action - nothing is stopping the creature from attempting to grab you again on its next turn).
• In addition, the description of the Grabbed condition on page 231 of the Rules Compendium explains that the grabbed condition ends immediately on the creature if the grabber is subjected to an effect that prevents it from taking actions, or if the grabbed creature ends up outside the range of the grabbing power or effect.

Two things to note on that second point: First, the Grabbed condition has received errata to make it so the grab only ends if the creature is prevented from taking ALL actions, not just OPPORTUNITY actions (this is a change from how Grabbed originally worked). So Dazing a creature that's grabbing another creature does not cause the grab to end any more (but Stunning it does cause the grab to end).

Second, forced movement only matters if the grabbed creature ends up outside the range of the power that did the grabbing. If a Roper has a range of 10 on its grab power, then forced movement would only break the grab if it causes the two creatures to be more than 10 squares apart.

Note that lots of grabbing powers have a range of 1 or 2 squares, so pushing the grabber a square or two is enough to break the grab in that case. With a Roper who has you held right up against itself, you'd need 10 squares of forced movement on either you or the Roper in order to have that end the grab. Note that the Roper's initial grab attack doesn't actually move you - if you're 10 squares away when it grabs you, you're still 10 squares away until it reels you in or it moves closer. So if it grabs you and fails to reel you in, it doesn't take much forced movement to break the grab (but Ropers being Ropers, it probably WILL reel you in).