Grading Encounter Attack Powers
- Thread starter keterys
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keterys
First Post
Spikes of the Manticore is just worse for single target, and almost always better for two targets. If you could put both attacks into a single target, that'd be different though.
Gladius Legis
Legend
Fighter:
Anvil of Doom is an A+ for hammer wielders. No question. That power is a keeper all the way to Lv. 30.
I'm also for taking Chains of Sorrow down to an A- or even a B+. It's a good power, to be sure, but you have to use a flail to make the most of it, and flails suck (no good feats).
Paladin:
Renewing Smite is a D at best, maybe even an F. Seriously, you're actually FAR better off taking the other of Invigorating Smite or Righteous Smite (the CHA-Paladin Lv. 3 powers, and as a side note, both those powers need bumping up to the A/A+ range). They do the same amount of damage and the healing is widespread (and in each case only 5 points less to all allies in the area than Renewing Smite's amount on only a single ally).
Rogue:
Stunning Strike is a flat out A, maybe even an A+. A stunning power could do 1 measly point of damage and it'd still get an A because stunning is really that good.
Warlord:
Fury of the Sirocco should be a B, at least. Rearranging enemies in a close burst to your tactical liking is a very powerful ability.
Anvil of Doom is an A+ for hammer wielders. No question. That power is a keeper all the way to Lv. 30.
I'm also for taking Chains of Sorrow down to an A- or even a B+. It's a good power, to be sure, but you have to use a flail to make the most of it, and flails suck (no good feats).
Paladin:
Renewing Smite is a D at best, maybe even an F. Seriously, you're actually FAR better off taking the other of Invigorating Smite or Righteous Smite (the CHA-Paladin Lv. 3 powers, and as a side note, both those powers need bumping up to the A/A+ range). They do the same amount of damage and the healing is widespread (and in each case only 5 points less to all allies in the area than Renewing Smite's amount on only a single ally).
Rogue:
Stunning Strike is a flat out A, maybe even an A+. A stunning power could do 1 measly point of damage and it'd still get an A because stunning is really that good.
Warlord:
Fury of the Sirocco should be a B, at least. Rearranging enemies in a close burst to your tactical liking is a very powerful ability.
keterys
First Post
So, would you say that Anvil of Doom is possibly too powerful for its level or would be dangerous for another class to get?
Flails don't suck... Whether they get more or less feats in other supplements, who knows but their base statistics are in line and not everyone has feats to burn. Either way, if you're already a flail user for whatever reason, what mark should the power have?
It's amusing how everyone has different feelings about healing... Renewing has one thing over Invigorating, it doesn't require bloodied... but yeah, it's even funnier to compare those against each other then against Inspiring and Bolstering and wonder what's going on here.
If Anvil is A+, then it should clearly be an A, or perhaps an A+ as well. If Anvil is an A, then most likely it should be an A-. It's possible they should both be As, even though Anvil is more of a 2d10ish power than a 1d6ish... would be a little odd, but very possible. Stunning does, indeed, rock. Though it's a lot more balanced than in 3e since you have a lot more rounds and lot more enemies and it doesn't make you drop things.
At any rate, so roughly that's just asking - is stunning so powerful that when it's introduced at level 13 it's better than all other options and regardless of the damage of both they should both be A+?
Not exactly to your tactical liking, since it's only slide 1. But certainly helpful. So, it seems worse than the other close bursts to compare against - for instance, it seems on par with the level 3 fighter Sweeping Blow, worse than the level 7 Ranger Sweeping Whirlwind, worse than the level 13 Paladin Whirlwind Smite.
You do have a valid point comparing it to the lower level abilities. It doesn't quite measure up to those. Comparing it to the Cleric Attack 13, Inspiring Strike, it heals about 10 points less, so even that comparison doesn't look good (though the paladin's job is not necessarily to be healer). However any healing is beneficial. So I wouldn't knock it down that much. I'll withdraw my earlier statement to increase it though.
Flails wouldn't be bad, if swords weren't so good (and it's the proficiency bonus that makes it so). While not related to this discussion, if I was playing a Devoted Cleric, my melee weapon of choice would be a dagger because of that +3 proficiency bonus.
As I said, I'm just reversing my position on Renewing Smite. But in general I still like healing powers a lot. Maybe this is because our group tends try and pump out every possible ounce of healing in difficult fights, just to stay alive.
There will be more stunning powers after this level (there may even be one before this level). It's very powerful in solo fights, and if a character has the option to get it, they should. But if you rarely fight solos, it may not be the end all power. I think I might prefer to try and pick dailies that stun, and encounter powers that do other things at higher levels. I think A is right for these powers.
You might want to rate the fighter powers based on what happens if you're not using the weapon of choice. As an example, Chains of Sorrow still gives a nice penalty to all defenses even if you're not wielding a flail. It isn't an A, but it is better than some of the other choices.
Renewing Smite is at best a C- - 2[W] attached to 10+a little hit points at 13th? At 13th, that's probably only 10-15% of your ally's hit points.
I'd rate Ranger's Knockdown Shot a definite D+ if not worse - you can't fire it at a target larger than you...if the combat doesn't have a medium or small combatant, you essentially only have 3 encounter powers at 13th, not 4. Yuck.
Warlock's Coldfire Vortex seems to be more powerful than a simple + compared to Soul Flaying.
I think most of the Warlord's powers here need an upgrade. Warlord's Beat Them Into the Ground is a weapon attack against Fort and with the bonus to hit, most of the make prone attacks aren't going to miss. Compare Bolstering Blow to Renewing Smite - an extra [W] and no MAD? Denying Smite is much, much better than a C+. I'd call it a B+ - you're not actually marking the target, which makes it easy to set up with a mark and then you getting out of reach.
Renewing Smite is at best a C- - 2[W] attached to 10+a little hit points at 13th? At 13th, that's probably only 10-15% of your ally's hit points.
I'd rate Ranger's Knockdown Shot a definite D+ if not worse - you can't fire it at a target larger than you...if the combat doesn't have a medium or small combatant, you essentially only have 3 encounter powers at 13th, not 4. Yuck.
Warlock's Coldfire Vortex seems to be more powerful than a simple + compared to Soul Flaying.
I think most of the Warlord's powers here need an upgrade. Warlord's Beat Them Into the Ground is a weapon attack against Fort and with the bonus to hit, most of the make prone attacks aren't going to miss. Compare Bolstering Blow to Renewing Smite - an extra [W] and no MAD? Denying Smite is much, much better than a C+. I'd call it a B+ - you're not actually marking the target, which makes it easy to set up with a mark and then you getting out of reach.
Pickles JG
First Post
I think B- is right - it's two [2w] attacks with decent pushes & even a free move. The weakness is the weapons you have to use it with - Glaive might prefer Storm of Blows for damage but its the best spear option.....
(Really I hope they make a superior Warspear one hand, 1d10 damage +2 prof & reach, though either d8 damage or no reach would probably make it worthwhile)
Replying to apearlma - you are soo far behind the curve if you dont use the right fighter weapon I do not think that adds anything.
keterys
First Post
Hmm, I missed that restriction on Knockdown shot. Thanks.
Soul Flaying does slightly more damage than Coldfire and goes against Will instead of Fortitude. And, y'know, weakens.
Renewing is going to get downgraded I suspect. That said, normal hp for a level 13 leader/striker is about 86. About 20 more for a defender and 15 less for a controller. So getting ~15 from a renewing smite isn't horrible if you have someone burning through surges.
Denying Smite is less generally effective than blind or stun - it's good for getting the person to attack someone else, obviously, but it doesn't hinder their ability to attack. So it can occasionally be used to save someone, but the 'optimal' use from a grading perspective is probably when it's combined with a fighter or paladin defender to just add on some extra damage and give a -2 attack penalty.
Soul Flaying does slightly more damage than Coldfire and goes against Will instead of Fortitude. And, y'know, weakens.
Renewing is going to get downgraded I suspect. That said, normal hp for a level 13 leader/striker is about 86. About 20 more for a defender and 15 less for a controller. So getting ~15 from a renewing smite isn't horrible if you have someone burning through surges.
Denying Smite is less generally effective than blind or stun - it's good for getting the person to attack someone else, obviously, but it doesn't hinder their ability to attack. So it can occasionally be used to save someone, but the 'optimal' use from a grading perspective is probably when it's combined with a fighter or paladin defender to just add on some extra damage and give a -2 attack penalty.
It definitely adds something. What's the best option for a Warhammer wielder at Fighter encounter level 3? Even though it isn't the right weapon, I'd have to say Rain of Blows.
Crushing Blow(rated a C currently) does 2[W]+Str+Con+bonuses once. Rain of Blows does 2[W]+Str*2+bonuses twice. Once you hit 11th and actually get Hammer Rhythm, you even get the possibility of missing twice with Rain of Blows as opposed to just once.
It might not be an A, but it is better than Crushing Blow by a decent amount.
Ditto for Chain of Sorrows. It isn't a great attack for someone who hasn't maxxed out Dex, but giving someone a -2 penalty until the end of your next turn isn't that bad of an option.
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