Grapple and Concealment

[Ilmyryn]

So this came up in a recent game of mine. How does concealment effect grappling? Specifically the concealment provided by Blur and displacement and the like?

Obviously the touch attack to start the grapple is effected by the miss chance. From there it became less clear to me. Common sense would seem to indicate that once you are bodily contacting someone, the blur or displacement effect would be much less beneficial for them. However I have not been able to find any particular rule to that effect.

I could also make the case that wrestling with someone who is blurred is hard because appendages are harder to grab hold of because their location keeps shifting and such. It would akin to attempting to wrestle someone with your eyes closed.

What do you all think?

 

[Thanee]

It doesn't affect grapple checks only attack rolls, or not?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Hmmm, I'd argue for the miss chance to apply b/c it is a hindrance to grappling (try grabbing someone's neck only to find out it's not where you thought it was). On the other hand, why would it apply to a monster with the constrict ability?

I think the DM needs to use common sense in this situation.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Concealment doesn't apply to the grapple check but applies to the touch attack necessary to begin the grapple. Grappling involves already being in contact with your opponent (if you made the touch attack) and wrestling, unless they are making melee attacks in a grapple, concealment won't apply.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Concealment doesn't apply to the grapple check but applies to the touch attack necessary to begin the grapple. Grappling involves already being in contact with your opponent (if you made the touch attack) and wrestling, unless they are making melee attacks in a grapple, concealment won't apply.

Source?

The SRD states that "grappling is like an attack", which is the closest thing I can find that justifies miss chance.

 

[Mahali]

Source?

The SRD states that "grappling is like an attack", which is the closest thing I can find that justifies miss chance.

"Like an attack" is not "an attack" and there is no to hit roll in grappeling except to initiate it. Therefor, no miss chance while grappeling.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Yes, but how do you know "like an attack" does not apply to the 20% miss chance. Again, source?

I think this is a judgement call on the part of the DM.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Yes, but how do you know "like an attack" does not apply to the 20% miss chance. Again, source?

I think this is a judgement call on the part of the DM.

How do you know ?
Because "concealment" (as conferred by 'Blur' ) offers a 20% chance of the attack not _striking_ you (check p.152 PHB). Once a grapple has been established by striking the target (were the "blur" takes effect, once ! ), it is a simple contest to _maintain_ the established contact, hence no striking, hence no _miss_ chance from 'blur'. Please take into account that 'blur' is a purely visual trick - once touch/physical contact ist established, visual tricks are less helpful. Just check the rules for concealment

"If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to _avoid_being_struck_. " In a grapple, there is no further attack roll after the initial touch attack, just an opposed check of grappling ability, which happens instead of an attack. _If_ it was an attack , the rules would explicitly read " a grapple check is an attack determined etc etc", .


As it is stated on page 152 PHB - "concealment does not always apply". If 'Blindsight', 'Tremorsense', 'Darkvision' or similar means can foil it, I daresay so will full body contact. And that is what one has, once the initial touch-attack (subject to 'blur') hits and grappling begins. There is no "striking" anymore.

And honestly, trying to bend the rules so out of obvious common sensical shape as to claim an optical trick might apply when one is wrestling WWF style and getting one's arm yanked out by one's opponent, smacks of nitpicking and severely abusing the rules. Please, don't tell me the dragon's chewing on a hapless chap (held fast in his maw by a grapple check ) is fooled for one moment by some fancy graphic mischief.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Well, if you knew anything about grappling you'd know that there's a lot of grabbing and pulling that goes on. And that might justify a miss chance. You can try and insult me by speculatung that I watch wrestling on TV but, after that, I really don't care about your ignorant opinion.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Well, if you knew anything about grappling you'd know that there's a lot of grabbing and pulling that goes on. And that might justify a miss chance. You can try and insult me by speculatung that I watch wrestling on TV but, after that, I really don't care about your ignorant opinion.

I am not insulting you. The "you" in the final paragraph is synonymous to a neutral "one". I will even edit it that way to ease your mind. Now reengage your polite mode, if you please.

And having practised Judo for fifteen years and earned the black belt, I am pretty confident of having a good idea of how and inasmuch grips, sweeps, throws and holds are initiated by subconscious grabbing of the relevant point of leverage. There is no room or time for targeting - you have to know where and how to grab and watch for the timing and shifting of force. Its similar in related "passive" martial arts.
Maybe classic-style wrestling is different (which I severely doubt), so I will withhold a judgement there, even if most of its manouevres should be very difficult while wearing full plate or even most medium types of armour - but I don't think a dragon, kraken or many other grappling monster can/could even see the places they are grappling. At least, I would be impressed if a dragon could watch the inside of his maw in the middle of combat.
Hence - little if no touch (attacks) involved, hence no miss chance.