Grapple (Multiple Grapplers)

[Artoomis]

Repeatedly in a grapple, a combatant needs to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is something like a melee attack roll.

A combatant's attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

So, is that an attack or isn't it? That is the question.

Let's go through a Grapple an dsee where the +2 applies:

Step 1: Grab:
The combatant makes a melee touch attack to grab the target. If the combatant fails to hit the target, the combatant fails to start the grapple.

Obviously it applies here.

Step 2: Hold:
Make an opposed grapple check. If the combatant succeeds, the combatant has started the grapple, and the combatant deals damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If the combatant loses, the combatant fails to start the grapple. The combatant automatically loses an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than the combatant is (but the combatant can still make an attempt to grab such a target, if that's all the combatant wants to do).

This looks like a mechanic for attacking - in fact, if you succeed you do damage. I'd say the +2 applies, as this is part of the attack. A grapple is an attack, after all.

Step 3 and 4 involve no rolls, so we needn't review them.

 

[kreynolds]

This looks like a mechanic for attacking - in fact, if you succeed you do damage. I'd say the +2 applies, as this is part of the attack.

Ah. Good point. The hold part of the grapple is indeed a function of the attack (I forgot you dealt damage on a successful hold), so yeah, you're right, the bonus would definately apply. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[kreynolds]

Opposed grapple checks at +14? The goblins will win most of those. Against a high level opponent, the main attacking goblin needs some fighter levels to pull this off, but that seems reasonable.

Yeah, but what are the odds that a 15th level fighter Goblin just happened to be closest to you when the mob of 2,000 goblins rushed you? Besides, what are the odds that a 15th level fighter Goblin would be there in the first place? It's possible, sure. But likely? Maybe, as any mob needs a leader, after all.

 

[Artoomis]

Yeah, but what are the odds that a 15th level fighter Goblin just happened to be closest to you when the mob of 2,000 goblins rushed you? Besides, what are the odds that a 15th level fighter Goblin would be there in the first place? It's possible, sure. But likely? Maybe, as any mob needs a leader, after all.

My point is that this seems like an acceptable mechanic to approximate a group of people swarming you.

 

[kreynolds]

My point is that this seems like an acceptable mechanic to approximate a group of people swarming you.

It is, yes. But many people are under the mistaken impression that a few hundred normal goblins have a chance in hell of taking down a 20th level fighter. The odds just aren't that great. The goblins would be lucky to hit the fighter, and the fighter would be lucky to miss them. In fact, the goblins would have to just about completely rely upon luck to come out ahead in such a situation.

It's just that every time a topic like this comes up, invariably, someone always chimes in with something like, "Oh yeah? Well 300 hundred goblins will take down that 20th level dual-wielding fighter of yours!", to which I simply say, "Not likely."

 

[Artoomis]

It is, yes. But many people are under the mistaken impression that a few hundred normal goblins have a chance in hell of taking down a 20th level fighter. The odds just aren't that great. The goblins would be lucky to hit the fighter, and the fighter would be lucky to miss them. In fact, the goblins would have to just about completely rely upon luck to come out ahead in such a situation.

It's just that every time a topic like this comes up, invariably, someone always chimes in with something like, "Oh yeah? Well 300 hundred goblins will take down that 20th level dual-wielding fighter of yours!", to which I simply say, "Not likely."

300?? Well, yeah, I could make that work.

Give 'em missle weapons. Let 'em spread out as much as possible (to avoid Great Cleave), though that's optional. Now shoot. 300 times. Or throw daggers with each hand - 600 times.

Assume Natural 20 needed to hit. Okay, 5% of 300 is 60. 60 hits in the first round - average damage of 210 points (120 hits for 300 points with daggers)!

Unless the fighter has got Dr or Protection from Normal Missles or something, he won't last two rounds.

With the right magic, though, you are right - the 20th level fighter wins every time, even against 300 un-leveled goblins.

It would be kind of funny to watch the big, bad, self-reliant fighter walk up to the goblin army and say "I'll kill you all" as his last words just before 120 daggers hit him.

 

[kreynolds]

300?? Well, yeah, I could make that work.

Give 'em missle weapons.

You misunderstand. We're talking about a grappling mob.

Besides, daggers have a max range of 50 feet, barring feats of course. 300 goblins can't get close enough to thow that many daggers. Also, goblins don't have Ambidexterity and Two-weapon fighting, nor do they have Far Shot.

 

[Artoomis]

You misunderstand. We're talking about a grappling mob.

Yeah, well, I just expanded that out just a bit - it was too precious an image to pass it up.

 

[kreynolds]

Yeah, well, I just expanded that out just a bit - it was too precious an image to pass it up.

You might wanna reread my post. I added a bit that pokes a few holes in your example.

 

[Artoomis]

You misunderstand. We're talking about a grappling mob.

Besides, daggers have a max range of 50 feet, barring feats of course. 300 goblins can't get close enough to throw that many daggers. Also, goblins don't have Ambidexterity and Two-weapon fighting, nor do they have Far Shot.

A 50' radius circle would have about 314 5' squares (an area of about 7854 sq ft, divided by 25 sq ft per 5-foot square). So 300 goblins could do it, but they could not spread out (unless using bows, then it's no problem at all, as they can all be at max range if they want, since we are only worrying about natural 20's).

After taking "cover" into account, I suppose some goblins would be killed from friendly fire, but so it goes...

Isn't math cool?