grapple question

[Tellerve]

I've got a monk character that is a grappler and so I have a question about that, but also it could relate to general questions about creatures and grappling.

on page 156, it says, "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses"

So..question;

1) They have the option of damage your opponent. You make an opposed grapple check. Um, k, so then let's say I have a grapple check of +12. And normally I have two attacks from a BAB of +6/+1. Now, do I get a grapple check at +12 and then another at +7. How is the opponents bab going down? If they don't have enough attacks to respond with an opposed grapple check do I automatically harm them? Or do you always use a static grapple check value?

2) Can you flurry of blows while grappling? They have attack your opponent using natural weapons, unarmed strike etc at -4. I haven't found anywhere but it appears that a monk would be at -4. As it also appears/reads, animals would be at -4.

3) An example; let's start a round next to an opponent and I'm not engaged in a grapple, and I have +6/+1 bab and +12 grapple. My first attack is a touch attack to start the grapple (I have improved grapple feat) and I succeed, we then make opposed grapple checks for free (i'm assuming at your full grapple check). At that point I've got a "hold", and I move into their square. I still have one more attack correct? So, can I go for a pin now, as it says I can go for a pin in place of an attack. However, it says it'll be an opposed grapple check...so is this still at +12 from above or +7 since it is an iterative grappling attack? Of course this leads back to question 1.

Thanks for any help/thoughts,

Tellerve

 

[Caliban]

I've got a monk character that is a grappler and so I have a question about that, but also it could relate to general questions about creatures and grappling.

on page 156, it says, "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses"

So..question;

1) They have the option of damage your opponent. You make an opposed grapple check. Um, k, so then let's say I have a grapple check of +12. And normally I have two attacks from a BAB of +6/+1. Now, do I get a grapple check at +12 and then another at +7. How is the opponents bab going down? If they don't have enough attacks to respond with an opposed grapple check do I automatically harm them? Or do you always use a static grapple check value?

Your grapple check bonus goes down with each iterative grapple attempt, the defenders does not.

Just like an opponents AC doesn't go down when you make your iterative attacks.

2) Can you flurry of blows while grappling? They have attack your opponent using natural weapons, unarmed strike etc at -4. I haven't found anywhere but it appears that a monk would be at -4. As it also appears/reads, animals would be at -4.

I don't see why not.

3) An example; let's start a round next to an opponent and I'm not engaged in a grapple, and I have +6/+1 bab and +12 grapple. My first attack is a touch attack to start the grapple (I have improved grapple feat) and I succeed, we then make opposed grapple checks for free (i'm assuming at your full grapple check). At that point I've got a "hold", and I move into their square. I still have one more attack correct? So, can I go for a pin now, as it says I can go for a pin in place of an attack. However, it says it'll be an opposed grapple check...so is this still at +12 from above or +7 since it is an iterative grappling attack? Of course this leads back to question 1.

Thanks for any help/thoughts,

Tellerve

Your first grapple check is at +12 to establish the hold (and you also do damage if this is successfull).

Your second grapple check in the same round would be at +7, while your opponenets would still be at their full bonus.

On your opponents turn, they would be making the iterative grapple checks, while as the defender you would have your full +12 on grapple checks to oppose them.

 

[Waldo]

2) Can you flurry of blows while grappling? They have attack your opponent using natural weapons, unarmed strike etc at -4. I haven't found anywhere but it appears that a monk would be at -4. As it also appears/reads, animals would be at -4.

I used to not allow this, since, "You can't attack with two weapons while grappling" and I always felt that Flurry was just a monkish way of two weapon attacking. Two free feats if you will, while using monk weapons or unarmed attacks. Plus, the Sage had illuminated the fact that a creature only gets as many attacks as their BAB allows, regardless of its number of weapons or natural attacks. So lions aren't really as good at grappling as you might think at first. They have a good grapple check, but only one attack instead of three.

Now that Flurry operates differently, and the description quite explicitly explains that a monk has no off-hand attack, can unarm strike with hands full, full Str damage to all attacks, and can strike with all available weapons interchangeably, it seems much more like additional attacks, and not a two weapon copy.

Monks should be good grapplers. So I think this is possible. Are we saying that a monk can flurry and make more opposed grapple checks then her BAB would allow? A slightly different situation then attacking with natural weapons at a -4.

I agree with the rest of the points.

 

[Tellerve]

K, so your grapple check is a freaky kinda AC as well then. I figured you would have your grapple check go down, but just wanted confirmation, as otherwise it would be very nasty.

Waldo, thanks so much for referencing the sage. I just looked through the monster manual for a number of creatures and your/sage's way of looking at the base attack for iterative grappling checks makes it so that a lot of animals will still want to use natural weapons and not grapple so much. Which is great, because at my gaming group we were starting to loose faith in grapple as it seemed all creatures that were pretty big should just do grapple as opposed to any other sort of attack.

I think that a monk could flurry of blows while grappling. The reason is that of it states you can make as many grappling checks as your base attack would allow. Normally for my example that is two, but monks have the ability to make that 3 with flurry.

It also says that most of the actions listed would counts as attacks (not mea or standard) and under the damage your opponent it talks about the exception of monks dealing more damage, being that the attack damage is equivalent to an unarmed strike.

While I'm not 100% convinced, I am leaning that way, but of course would like to hear other thoughts.

Tellerve

 

[Tellerve]

bumpity bump bump

 

[Nareau]

Let's look at a Giant Octopus: 8 attacks, +10 each, 1d4+5 damage. Improved Grab, constrict for 2d8+6, BAB +6, grapple +15.

So the octopus makes a full attack (see above). It hits on its first attack (1d4+5), and starts a grapple for free (+15 to check, does +1d4+5 2d8+6). Now it's grappling. What now?

Can it only make one more grapple check this round, at +10 (using its iterative attack for having a +6 BAB)?

Can it use a free action to release you from the grapple, and then hit you with tentacle #2? If so, and if it hits, does it get to start a grapple for free? If so, does it get a +15 or a +10 to its grapple check?

If the octopus hits you over and over again, but doesn't manage to get a hold on you with its first 2 attacks, does it have any "grapple attempts" left?

It seems to me that the most logical thing to do is to say that a grapple check can be made in place of an attack roll. If you have multiple attacks (due to flurry, BAB, multiple limbs), you can make multiple grapple checks during the round.

The PHB says (under Damage your opponent, p 156), "Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack."

The passage in the PHB about "you can't attack with two weapons" seems to be directed at dagger-wielding rangers, not monstrous grapplers.

Spider

 

[Waldo]

Very interesting questions.

Can it only make one more grapple check this round, at +10 (using its iterative attack for having a +6 BAB)?

As far as I can tell from the PHB and the old sage advice, yes.

Can it use a free action to release you from the grapple, and then hit you with tentacle #2? If so, and if it hits, does it get to start a grapple for free? If so, does it get a +15 or a +10 to its grapple check?

You can release a pinned character as a free action, but not a grappling one.

If the octopus hits you over and over again, but doesn't manage to get a hold on you with its first 2 attacks, does it have any "grapple attempts" left?

Yes.

I have three thoughts here. First, the improved grab grappler can use -20 on his checks, as per the MM. The octopus can now make attacks as if it wasn't grappling. It pummels it's grapplee, or even grapples 7 more opponents at -20 grapple checks.

Second, I could see you easily ruling that a improved grab endowed creature can use all its natural attacks, but other wise, I don't think multiple limbs should count. As per sage advice and the "successively lower base attacks" text in the PHB under grapple.

Third, if you did allow it to grapple 8 times, this CR 8 creature could deal 8 X ((1d4+5)+(2d8+6)) = 8d4+16d8+88 points of damage per round. If it hit with each of its +15 grapples, and then rolled average results, it would deal 180 hp of damage each round. That seem like CR 8 to you?

 

[Tellerve]

Yep, exactly what I was going to point out. Spider and I play in the same group and he brought up the octopus idea to me and while it seems a bit odd possibly to not have it grapple with all its attacks it also is horrifically powerful if you do.

I like your suggestion of it taking -20 and then pummeling the person it has grappled or someone else. If it had attacked, and successfully grappled, does it have to take -20 to keep attacking with its other 7 arms? Lets say it doesn't, and let's say it improve grabs 8 people. Is it's grapple check going down like I think it should for iterative attacks and thus it isn't likely to ever get 8 people grabbed, or does it get +15 grapple check for each person hit with a tentacle slam?

*brain hurts*

Tellerve

 

[Waldo]

Even a creature with improved grab is considered 'grappled' if it doesn't take -20. It doesn't threaten or get a dex bonus to other combatants, and can't attack other folks. It can move however, says the MM under improved grab.

So it is unlikely to grapple 8 foes, since the -20 will make it tough. But it probably will grab a couple, which seems very octopus like.

And I heard them say they were 'cleaning' the grapple rules up
Looks like there's still some dirt.

 

[Pielorinho]

Y'know, the more we poke at the grapple rules, the more I hate them. Just so everyone knows: Tellerve and Spider are both players in my game, and are asking these questions in preparation for summoning and polymorphing into giant (righteous-mighted?) octopodes in next week's session.

And you think YOU have headaches .

Daniel