grapple question

[Tellerve]

I still am not sure about the grapple check going down by 5 or whatever (the whatever in case of flurry of blows). I was hoping you'd throw in more on that, and if you felt you have then obviously not enough to clear it up for me

Waldo-

If my character, a monk, did the following what would you say, in terms of logical assertions to the rules we can understand. He has a BAB of +6/+1, and a grapple of +12. He is a monk so can flurry and is 5th level so the flurries are at -1. So, without adding in strength his BAB could be +5/+5/+0. He has the improved grapple feat.

So, let's say his first attack of a flurry is to do a touch attack to start a grapple. He hits and then there is an exchange of grapple checks, me at +12, the other guy/beast/whatever at its grapple number. I succeed and get a hold and do my unarmed damage.

Next, I want to do my two other "attacks" as grapple checks to do damage. So I get two now, right? At what grapple check? +11 (+12, minus 1 from flurry), and then +6 (5 off of the +11) one? Or since most people would probably rule that an animal with improved grab or whatever on say that on whatever hit eventually gets a chance to do improved grab would get its normal grapple check. That would lead me to think I get two more at +12, versus the other persons full normal grapple check. The amount is determined by BAB, but the actual check is a static value used to do an opposed roll.

And finally for the record. I don't wanna change into a octopus, I find it cheesy, speaking of cheesy Daniel, and would rather be epic and cool and just fight the beastie with my normal body.

Tellerve

 

[Veander]

Hmm, while I don't think it's entirely unbalancing to let player characters use their Flurry of Blows, TWFs and other extra attacks to make grapple checks, I do think that most creatures around CR3, 4 and up would hand the PCs their butts. Especially when you have plenty of creatures of large size or bigger, thus adding on plenty of grapple bonuses.

 

[Pielorinho]

On thinking about this:
-It doesn't make sense to me that you'd be able to use every natural weapon as a separate grapple attempt.
-It does make sense to me that you'd be able to attack with every natural weapon while grappling, taking a -4 penalty on each.
-However, I'm afraid to houserule this (i.e., houserule that you can make all natural weapon attacks as long as you take a -4 on each) will lead to some kind of uber tactic when combined with PC abilities.

Is the by-the-book ruling that you cannot make all your natural weapon attacks while in a grapple? Do creatures that normally don't get iterative attacks suddenly gain them while in a grapple, but only with one of their natural weapons?

Confusing and awful.
Daniel

 

[Waldo]

So, let's say his first attack of a flurry is to do a touch attack to start a grapple. He hits and then there is an exchange of grapple checks, me at +12, the other guy/beast/whatever at its grapple number. I succeed and get a hold and do my unarmed damage.

Next, I want to do my two other "attacks" as grapple checks to do damage. So I get two now, right? At what grapple check? +11 (+12, minus 1 from flurry), and then +6 (5 off of the +11) one?

If you are ruling that a monk can flurry while grappling, which is still very hazy in my mind, then I would say this is correct. I say it's hazy because even creatures with improved grab seem unable to increase their number of grapple checks beyond BAB, without -20s. I'm not sure Monks should be better than monstrous grapplers. Not to mention the grapple rules just say, "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks" not just "if you have multiple attacks".

Or since most people would probably rule that an animal with improved grab or whatever on say that on whatever hit eventually gets a chance to do improved grab would get its normal grapple check. That would lead me to think I get two more at +12, versus the other persons full normal grapple check. The amount is determined by BAB, but the actual check is a static value used to do an opposed roll.

Monsters will often use their full grapple with improved grab, it's true. The reason for this is that a monster's improved grab ability is usually linked to its primary weapon. As such, it is always at its highest BAB, even if it has multiple attacks with its primary natural weapon.

In my opinion, your grapple check should use the same BAB as the attack that initiated it. As such, I don't see why a monstrous grappler with improved grab and monk levels (I don't know what that would be, I'm in hypothetical realm) couldn't flurry and use it's last (extra) attack to initiate a grapple if it hits. It would use it's lowest BAB on that grapple check. The joys of monsters with Character levels.

 

[reapersaurus]

The confusion as I see it lies in the combination of grappling with Improved Grab (and subsequently, Constrict).

Unless you've got Improved Grab, you .. geez, this is ugly.

OK, IF you don't have Improved Grab, and you grapple someone, than you're considered grappling. You can either follow up with grapple checks based on your BAB, OR attack with light weapons.

From the FAQ:
Note that creatures with the improved grab special attack can
use their natural weapons in a grapple. Note also that monk
characters deal their unarmed strike damage with successful
grapple checks. Monks and creatures with improved grab are
formidable grapplers.

A monk would probably not be able to use flurry strikes to make opposed grapple checks. With Improved Grapple (3.5), they can start a grapple with one, but not follow up with a different attack, if they're already grappling.

Now, if ya got Improved Grab, each attack can be used to START a grapple attempt. Whether you allow them to be used once IN a grapple, is up to you, I guess. Pretty damned abusive, when you throw in Constrict.

I think that if a Giant Octopus has you in a grapple, and then decides to flail at you with all its tentacles, that sounds like a Bad Scene.
Putting Constrict on top of all the natural weapon + STR damage would be unbalancing.

So he'd have to choose between buffeting the grappled foe, OR following up with the grapple checks - which are based off his BAB, but get the Constrict damage on top of the grapple damage (based on Size, unless they're a monk, too).

 

[Waldo]

So he'd have to choose between buffeting the grappled foe, OR following up with the grapple checks - which are based off his BAB, but get the Constrict damage on top of the grapple damage (based on Size, unless they're a monk, too).

Improved Grabbers do not do damage by size. Improved Grabbers do the damage listed for the attack that started the grapple. Plus constrict if they have it.

Fun fun....