Grapple Update?

[tomBitonti]

Hi,

There are a number of changes made in the "Rules of the Game" column at WOTC:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a

Are these actual changes, or a clarification, and, if they are changes, can they be considered official errata?

As may be no great surprise, these rules clarifications are still confusing. Amoung several, here are two difficulties that I am having:

The text stating that "every successful grapple check the attacker makes in successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold." Is that every grapple check, those made to "Attack Your Opponent", those made to "Damage your opponent", or both? The parenthetical "(This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)" is not helpful, as is matches neither title. If a Cave Troll, with a bite and two claw attacks, establishes a hold (via improved grab) from its bite attack, attacks with natural weapons, do these all do bite damage? Only, the Cave Troll has a BAB that allows two attacks. Does the Cave Troll get two attacks, with its choice of natural attacks, but each dealing bite damage? Or is this simple that the Cave troll gets two bite attacks?

(As well, once in a grapple, the Cave Troll should get two extra rake attacks. How does the Cave Troll every get to use these?)

The text from part two that states "you can attempt one of these maneuvers in place of each of your attacks". So, if you have a BAB of +3 and are hasted, do you get a single grapple attack, made with an attack bonus of +0 (+3 +1 -4), but if you have a BAB of +6 and are hasted, you would get three???, and at +3 (+6 + 1 -4), -2 (+6 +1 -4 -5), and -7 (+6 +1 -4 -10). I don't think that is what the writer meant, but that is how the text reads.

(A similar example can be made working off of the monk's flurry-of-blows ability.)

From Part 2:

Many of these maneuvers take the place of an attack (rather than being standard actions or move actions). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these maneuvers in place of each of your attacks, but you use successively lower attack bonuses to resolve any required opposed grapple checks.

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details).

And:

Damage Your Opponent: You can make an opposed grapple check to deal damage to your opponent when grappling. If you win the opposed check, you deal nonlethal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers 2d6 for Colossal attackers, 1d8 Gargantuan, 1d6 Huge, 1d4 Large, 1d3 Medium, 1d2 Small, 1 Tiny or smaller; plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Monks (and a few other characters), deal more damage with unarmed strikes than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, a monk can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). A creature with natural weaponry can choose to deal nonlethal damage in a grapple by taking a -4 penalty. Even if a creature has natural weaponry, it doesn’t use those natural weapons as part of this action. It must use the “Attack Your Opponent” action (described above) to do so.

From Part 4:

In general, monsters follow the same rules as PCs when conducting a grapple.

Monsters in a grapple may use their natural weapons, but only by using the “Attack Your Opponent” option (which applies a –4 penalty on the attack roll). When using the “Damage Your Opponent” option, the creature deals unarmed strike damage appropriate to its size (see Part 2 of this column)

And:

Improved Grab: The improved grab special attack allows a monster to make a grab attack as part of a regular melee attack with a particular natural weapon (usually a bite or claw). If the attack hits, the natural weapon deals damage normally, and the monster immediately makes an opposed check to establish a hold. The attack doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Since the attack already dealt damage when it hit, a successful hold deals no extra damage. Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)

Thx,

Tom Bitonti

 

[kjenks]

You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details).

The PH/SRD says...
===
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
===
The rest of that stuff is a house rule. The PH/SRD does not give an exception like this for using multiple natural weapons while grappling.

If your DM wants to make a house rule that agrees with this Rules of the Game article, that's peachy, but it dramatically increases the offensive capabilities of grappling monsters vs. what the PH rules say.

 

[frankthedm]

The text stating that "every successful grapple check the attacker makes in successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold." Is that every grapple check, those made to "Attack Your Opponent", those made to "Damage your opponent", or both? The parenthetical "(This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)" is not helpful, as is matches neither title. If a Cave Troll, with a bite and two claw attacks, establishes a hold (via improved grab) from its bite attack, attacks with natural weapons, do these all do bite damage? Only, the Cave Troll has a BAB that allows two attacks. Does the Cave Troll get two attacks, with its choice of natural attacks, but each dealing bite damage? Or is this simple that the Cave troll gets two bite attacks?

(As well, once in a grapple, the Cave Troll should get two extra rake attacks. How does the Cave Troll every get to use these?)

I read “on successive rounds “ to mean that the grapple checks the monster rolls on it’s own turns, not the grapple rolls it wins on other’s characters turns{like from someone failing to escape grapple].

Cave troll Bites and improved grabs a victim. If he has movement left to him, he can move away with victim.

On his next turn he uses his BAB based iterative attacks to grapple the foe, selecting various grapple options, like “damage an opponent” or “pin”. Each of those it succeeds also deal the improved grab appendage’s damage {plus constrict if it has that]. A successful “damage an opponent” would deal non lethal unarmed strike damage as well as bite damage due to the wording of improved grab. A successful “Pin” would pin the foe anddeal bite damage due to the wording of improved grab. It then adds in the rake attacks it is entitled to.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I only glanced at the article, but it's chock full of the phrase "The rules don't say... But common sense..." which can only mean trouble.

What do the crossed out sections mean? Has some of his comments been retracted, or am I having font issues?

 

[kjenks]

The original Rules of the Game article was wrong. This new one corrects several blatant erros.