Grappling and Multiple Attacks

[Pinotage]

I have a few questions on grappling, or rather several statements that I'd like clarification on:

1) A high level fighter with four attacks attempts to grapple an opponent. The first attack succeeds and the fighter manages to get a hold. Since the fighter is now grappling, the other three attacks can't take place and are wasted. Similarly, if a giant octopus grabs hold of a person on its third attack of eight and grapples with its whole body, the remainder of its attacks do not take place that round. Correct?

2) If an octopus is grappling an opponent with its whole body, is it grappling with all eight tentacles? Or only the one that initially succeeded at the grapple? If grappling, can it attempt to grapple the same opponent with the other seven tentacles as well, or do they just flail about when the octopus is grappling? Basically, is there any use to those other tentacles if the octopus is grappling with its whole body? Can there be a scenario where an octopus can grapple the same opponent with four tentacles and cause four times the constrict damage?

I think that covers it for now. Thanks!

Pinotage

 

[noeuphoria]

1). Actually, the fighter can take the rest of his attacks. While grappling, you can use an attack to attempt to hit your opponent (at -4). Or you can make opposed grapple checks (which use up 1 attack) to do stuff. So your fighter, if grappled after his first attack, has 3 more chances to make attacks w/a light weapon, or make opposed grapple checks (at successively lower attack bonuses of course) Of course, this is because the fighter gets iterative attacks.

As for how many tentacles the octopus is using, that's flavor-based and unimportant. If it has improved grapple, it has 2 choices:

a) Treat itself as grappled. That means no attacks on anyone else, and the only actions it can take are actions a grappled creature can.

b) Choose not to act as grappled. This gives it -20 on its grapple check, but can attack others, does not lose its dex bonus, etc...

 

[Pinotage]

Thanks! In the case of (a) can it still take 2 attacks since it has +6 BAB?

Pinotage

 

[ken-ichi]

Yes. In the case of (a) above, one grapple action or tentacle attack at +6 and one at +1.

 

[Prism]

Its one of the most confusing aspects of combat I would say.

If said octopus attacks and grapples on the first of its 8 attacks, unless it takes the -20 to grapple it suddenly switches into grapple mode which means it loses its other 7 attacks (plus beak) as the grapple rules only allow for additional attacks through a high attack bonus and iterative attacks

However, if the octopus fails to grapple on its first 7 attacks (probably partly because its taking -20) then it succeeds on the 8th attack it doesn't really lose out. Does it suddenly switch to grapple mode and get another attack because of its +6/+1 BAB - I have no idea!

It seems ridiculous that an octopus is at an advantage when it doesn't actually grapple until after all of its attacks

The problem is that the PHB rules do not discuss monster attacks at all (being the PHB I suppose they shouldn't) and so all the focus is on getting multiple attacks through BAB. It mentions that you can't attack with two weapons but doesn't explain why an octopus can't use its beak in a grapple - unless its taking the -20 of course

The MM sheds no further light on the matter

We play it that creatures keep their normal attack routines in whilst in a grapple. So an octopus still gets 9 attacks, a bear still gets 3 etc. Otherwise the octopus is considerably worse of when grappling than when not - which seems a bit silly. It also means that you don't have to switch from monster attack routine to BAB iterative attacks midway through the round which there are no guidelines on really. All the rules pretty much assume that you either grapple in a round or attack and don't really deal with both

This last bit is all house rule stuff of course

 

[JackS]

Well

Actually you can make all your attacks, start the grapple THEN choose to act as if not grappled. This way you get all your attacks & threat area.

Besides the fighter with 4 attacks who started the Grapple on his fist attack gets 3 grapple attempts to damage/pin.

 

[argo]

Its one of the most confusing aspects of combat I would say.

If said octopus attacks and grapples on the first of its 8 attacks, unless it takes the -20 to grapple it suddenly switches into grapple mode which means it loses its other 7 attacks (plus beak) as the grapple rules only allow for additional attacks through a high attack bonus and iterative attacks

Well, that octopus deals natural weapon damage when making the attack that establishes the grapple as well as with each successful grapple check that follows, moreover if it has the Constrict ability (giant octopus) then it also deals constrict damage with the improved grab attempt as well as with each following successful grapple check. Trust me, damage from grapple monsters adds up fast.

However, if the octopus fails to grapple on its first 7 attacks (probably partly because its taking -20) then it succeeds on the 8th attack it doesn't really lose out. Does it suddenly switch to grapple mode and get another attack because of its +6/+1 BAB - I have no idea!

You never get itterative attacks with natural weapons, no matter how high your BAB. Instead creatures with natural weapons usually get to make multiple attacks at their highest BAB which often works out to their benefit.

The problem is that the PHB rules do not discuss monster attacks at all (being the PHB I suppose they shouldn't) and so all the focus is on getting multiple attacks through BAB. It mentions that you can't attack with two weapons but doesn't explain why an octopus can't use its beak in a grapple - unless its taking the -20 of course

This is why most grappling monsters usually get constrict or rend abilities that do obscene ammounts of damage, they roll everythign up into just one or two attacks for simplicity's sake.

Hope that helps.

 

[Prism]

You never get itterative attacks with natural weapons, no matter how high your BAB. Instead creatures with natural weapons usually get to make multiple attacks at their highest BAB which often works out to their benefit.

With their normal natural attacks I agree that you never use iterative attacks but with the grapple rules I don't think it is that clear cut. The PHB grapples state that you get multiple grapples in a round for having a high BAB. Now it doesn't say that this is only for characters rather than monsters. The thing is that grapples aren't natural attacks and they are manufactored weapon attacks - they are something different but its not clear what

So as an example lets say that the giant octopus starts its round grappling. Lets assume it doesn't use the -20 to grapple with 1 limb

Does it get

1) a single grapple attempt because creatures never get iterative attacks and you can't use multiple weapons in a grapple

2) 2 grapple attacks due to its +6/+1 BAB is this is how the PHB grapple rules state a grapple runs in the basic info they give

3) its normal 9 attacks which happen to be 9 grapples. 1 for each attack it normally gets

Now by the RAW I think its 2) because the RAW does not cover monsters. But the way I think it should be played is 3). Otherwise, even with constrict, an giant octopus is always better at making its normal attack routine than grappling

 

[Scion]

Definately not 3, although it is hidden oddly.

SRD:
Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling , but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

 

[Pinotage]

I'd go for number (2). If the octopus grapples with its whole body, it should be able to resort to its BAB for extra grapple 'actions'.

Pinotage