Grappling and Multiple Attacks

[noeuphoria]

Unfortunately, I'd have to go for 1). The MM specifically states that a monsterdoes not get iterative attacks with it's BAB. It doesn't matter if it's inside or outside the grapple. If the giant octopus is grappled, it gets 1 grapple check per round (or one attack with a tentacle at -4) against it's opponent. Same with a dragon (although dragons are prob more inclined to just take -20 so they can own).

 

[Hypersmurf]

The MM specifically states that a monsterdoes not get iterative attacks with it's BAB.

"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

In theory, the octopus could forego its tentacle damage, and instead deal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike for a creature of its size, using multiple attacks since it is not using a natural weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[noeuphoria]

So how would we handle something like this: Dragon is grappling someone at the beginning of it's turn. It uses an opposed grapple check to swallow the opponent. The dragon is now no longer grappled. I think we'd all agree that the dragon can still move, but can it take any other actions?

 

[argo]

So how would we handle something like this: Dragon is grappling someone at the beginning of it's turn. It uses an opposed grapple check to swallow the opponent. The dragon is now no longer grappled. I think we'd all agree that the dragon can still move, but can it take any other actions?

An opposed grapple check takes the place of a single attack.

A single attack is a standard action.

The dragon has a move-equiv action left.

 

[AuraSeer]

So how would we handle something like this: Dragon is grappling someone at the beginning of it's turn. It uses an opposed grapple check to swallow the opponent. The dragon is now no longer grappled. I think we'd all agree that the dragon can still move, but can it take any other actions?

If he chooses to move, that's all he can do. A grapple check takes the place of one attack-- in the dragon's case, his bite-- so he has expended his standard action for the round on the Attack action.

Alternately, he can stay put and make it a Full Attack. If his normal attack routine is 1 bite and 2 claws, he uses the bite for the grapple check and can still make the two claw attacks. However, since Full Attack is a full-round action, the only movement he can take is a 5-foot step.

 

[Prism]

So how would we handle something like this: Dragon is grappling someone at the beginning of it's turn. It uses an opposed grapple check to swallow the opponent. The dragon is now no longer grappled. I think we'd all agree that the dragon can still move, but can it take any other actions?

I would say that after the swallow with its bite attack as it is not considered grappled at this point and can therefore complete its remaining attacks as normal

Interestingly if we allow for the multiple grapples based upon BAB ruling as technically grapple attacks are not natural weapon attacks, the dragon could attempt possibly multiple tries to swallow its grappled opponent if it takes the full attack option and then still use its secondary attacks like its claws to attack other opponents

"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

In theory, the octopus could forego its tentacle damage, and instead deal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike for a creature of its size, using multiple attacks since it is not using a natural weapon

I think there is a case to say that although a creature with improved grab does its natural attack damage on a succesful grapple to do damage, this is not actually an attack with that weapon - its still a grapple that happens to more damage - a bit like a monk

 

[Longbow]

What about a 8th-level Druid in wildshape-form who ist grappling? Does he get multiple Grapple attempts with a natural weapon because he has a +6 BAB? Or does he get only one Grapple attempt like normal animals/monsters?

BTW, this thread is very helpful to me. I always assumed a monster can grapple with all his natural weapons. I hope no player of mine died because of that mistake. :\

 

[Pinotage]

More Questions

OK, I have some more questions on this topic:

Say the giant octopus grapples a creature in a round, and its turn comes up in the next round. Can it either (a) cause tentacle and constrict damage on a successful grapple check or (b) use all its other natural attacks to attack the same creature at -4 but forgo the hold and constrict damage?

Also, both the octopus and the kraken's description say that it can make an AoO against a sunder attempt while it is grappling with another target. Anybody care to explain this to me? Is it a special case, because since it's grappling it doesn't threaten an area and hence can't take AoO. Or don't you need to threaten an area to take an AoO against an action that provokes one (not a move action).

Thanks again!

Pinotage

 

[noeuphoria]

If he chooses to move, that's all he can do. A grapple check takes the place of one attack-- in the dragon's case, his bite-- so he has expended his standard action for the round on the Attack action.

Alternately, he can stay put and make it a Full Attack. If his normal attack routine is 1 bite and 2 claws, he uses the bite for the grapple check and can still make the two claw attacks. However, since Full Attack is a full-round action, the only movement he can take is a 5-foot step.

But then we're letting the dragon act like he gets to use all his natural attacks in a grapple. Effectively, that's saying "the dragon gets to use his bite and 2 claws in the grapple, he used the bite, now he gets the claws" which does not jibe with the the MM. I guess I'd have to rule it like this: in a grapple, the dragon gets iterative attacks so if he uses 1, and then stops grappling, treat it as an attack action. If he uses more than one, it's a full attack against the target he's grappling, and he loses any extra if they stop. It would be similar to a fighter hitting an ooze with his sword and it melting. If the fighter had made one attack, simple, he has a move action left. But what if he gets 3 attacks/round and the sword melts on his 2nd attack? Could he make a 3rd attack with his fist? or is he done?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If he uses more than one, it's a full attack against the target he's grappling, and he loses any extra if they stop. It would be similar to a fighter hitting an ooze with his sword and it melting. If the fighter had made one attack, simple, he has a move action left. But what if he gets 3 attacks/round and the sword melts on his 2nd attack? Could he make a 3rd attack with his fist? or is he done?

He can absolutely make a third attack with his fist. Or throw a shuriken. Or quick-draw a mace and hit it again.

You don't make a full attack "against a creature".

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

-Hyp.