Grappling and Multiple Attacks

[Izerath]

here again I think you missed my point

Except that isn't one natural weapon; that's eight natural weapons.

"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. "

If you cast Magic Fang on a Carrion Crawler, you only enhance one of its tentacles, for example.

Likewise, a Carrion Crawler can only attack with one natural weapon in a grapple - that is, one tentacle. Not eight natural weapons.

-Hyp.

This is where I disagree. Grappling deals with PRIMARY and SECONDARY weapons. How you determine the number of attacks is DIFFERENT for monsters than it is for PCs. The quoted statement even supports my point.

"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon..."

A PC uses one primary weapon in his dominant hand. His BAB says he can get X number of attacks, even when grappling. If he has a dagger in his other hand as a secondary weapon, he cannot use it even though it is a light wepon.

A carrion crawler's tentacles are listed ONCE as the PRIMARY weapon. It gets 8 attacks with this primary weapon. Its secondary weapon, a bite, is not allowed during a grapple. Therefore, it gets 8 attempts to grapple and cannot bite.

As far as magic fang, it is specific to ONE natural weapon. I don't think I disagree with your statement on that aspect.

I specifically differentiate between a natural weapon and a PRIMARY weapon when interpreting grapple. People get confused when dealing with monsters with multiple primary attacks that are natural weapons. The grappling rules on this are unclear in their intent because they focus on a PC view, which just confuses people even more.

We'll just have to see what the sage says on this I guess. In the mean time we agree to disagree.

 

[Shadowdweller]

*sigh* Anyone else get the feeling that the Skip Williams, Customer Service, and all the rest of the WotC staff are intentionally avoiding trying to answer these problems?

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as magic fang, it is specific to ONE natural weapon. I don't think I disagree with your statement on that aspect.

Ah - so if it specifies "one natural weapon", you agree that it applies to a single tentacle, not to all eight?

People get confused when dealing with monsters with multiple primary attacks that are natural weapons. The grappling rules on this are unclear in their intent because they focus on a PC view, which just confuses people even more.

But we have grappling statements specific to creatures with natural weapons.

Like "Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling".

"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon."

A carrion crawler has more than one natural weapon (eight tentacles). A set of them (eight tentacles) is the primary weapon. While grappling, it can attack with only one of its natural weapons (one tentacle).

There is no statement "A creature can only attack with its primary weapon while grappling". A dragon, while grappling, can attack with its bite. Or a claw. Or a wing. Or its tail. But only one. Even though most of those are secondary weapons, the only restriction is that it can only attack with one natural weapon.

A carrion crawler can freely choose which of its eight tentacles will be the one natural weapon it attacks with. But only one.

-Hyp.

 

[target]

Except that isn't one natural weapon; that's eight natural weapons.

"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. "
-Hyp.

Perhaps I am missing your point, but why aren't the 8 tentacles in the octopus case an example of a set of primary weapons? My reading is that the tentacles are the primary weapons, and all remaining natural weapons (e.g. the beak) are secondary.

This seems like a much more intuitive reading of "one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them)" than assuming they must mean exactly one tentacle of the eight identical ones.

- target

 

[Hypersmurf]

Perhaps I am missing your point, but why aren't the 8 tentacles in the octopus case an example of a set of primary weapons? My reading is that the tentacles are the primary weapons, and all remaining natural weapons (e.g. the beak) are secondary.

That's right. All eight are primary - hence no penalty on attack rolls, and full strength bonus to damage.

And one of those eight can be used in a grapple. Because "a pair or set" is an alternative to "one natural weapon". So we know that the set of eight is not "one natural weapon", it is eight.

"A pair or set" of natural weapons cannot be used in a grapple; only one natural weapon can.

The carrion crawler has eight natural weapons, all of which are primary; he can use one of them in a grapple.

-Hyp.

 

[Izerath]

I give up

Ah - so if it specifies "one natural weapon", you agree that it applies to a single tentacle, not to all eight?

But we have grappling statements specific to creatures with natural weapons.

Like "Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling".

"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon."

A carrion crawler has more than one natural weapon (eight tentacles). A set of them (eight tentacles) is the primary weapon. While grappling, it can attack with only one of its natural weapons (one tentacle).

There is no statement "A creature can only attack with its primary weapon while grappling". A dragon, while grappling, can attack with its bite. Or a claw. Or a wing. Or its tail. But only one. Even though most of those are secondary weapons, the only restriction is that it can only attack with one natural weapon.

A carrion crawler can freely choose which of its eight tentacles will be the one natural weapon it attacks with. But only one.

-Hyp.

Now even I am tangled up in the grammar. What a pain in the butt.

Think of it this way. If you had 4 arms and were wrestling someone with only two, don't you think you'd have the advantage and could hold them down with 1 or even two arms and them beat on them with the others? Something is broken here, and I am just trying to figure it out.

My point is that there is a difference between a natural weapon (which is a single, pair or set classified as primary or secondary weapon) and a SINGLE ATTACK with a natural weapon. If it's a pair or set, then it is X attacks, and all X attacks are available in the full attack grapple, not just one.

"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon."

To me a natural weapon is a single, pair or set of attacks of the same type. 8 tentacles, 4 arms, 2 claws. That's how I read this sentence.

The way you interpret this sentence, it certainly seems to me like the carrion crawler gets the shaft when grappling with full attack, even if it has more natural weapon attacks at his disposal.

Per your interpretation, a fighter w/BAB+20 holding one dagger gets 4 attacks while full attack grappling, but a carrion crawler with 8 tentacles can only use one of them to attack while in a full attack grapple with the same fighter, because the rules don't allow the carrion crawler to use BAB for multiple attacks and you read the previous sentence as "it only gets one?"

I don't agree with that. The rule should not level the playing field unfairly just because PC's can use BAB for multiple attacks and the monster can't.

Anyway I'm done with this one until I get some clear answers from WotC. I pray I am not waiting forever.

Peace.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Per your interpretation, a fighter w/BAB+20 holding one dagger gets 4 attacks while full attack grappling, but a carrion crawler with 8 tentacles can only use one of them to attack while in a full attack grapple with the same fighter, because the rules don't allow the carrion crawler to use BAB for multiple attacks and you read the previous sentence as "it only gets one?"

The rules don't allow the carrion crawler to use BAB for multiple attacks with Natural Weapons.

Give it a Ring of Spell Storing so it can cast Spiritual Weapon; it can get multiple attacks based on BAB. Give it a Dancing weapon; it can get multiple attacks based on BAB. Give it an Opposable weapon (MotW - allows creatures without thumbs to wield a sword, for example); it can get multiple attacks based on BAB.

While grappling, it can take certain actions in place of the attacks it is allowed for having a high BAB. The 'Damage Your Opponent' action, for example, lets it deal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike for a creature of its size, and with a BAB of +6, it could do this twice (at +6 and +1 respectively). Or attempt to pin. Or attempt to break a grapple.

All it's restricted from doing is attacking with more than one natural weapon while grappling, or gaining multiple attacks with a natural weapon for having a high BAB.

-Hyp.

 

[Izerath]

Wait a second - is that a lightbulb?

Hyp.

All the aforementioned points are understood. The clarification was unnecessary, but appreciated none-the-less.

My hangup was on the Attack your Opponent option. After reading your last post, I think I caught something.
When you mentioned Damage your opponent, it made me look at the differences between the two options, and then the perverbial lightbulb came on.....

Under Attack your opponent, it says "You can make AN attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon or light weapon against another character you are grappling......"

If this means that even the fighter with the +20 BAB can only get ONE attack with the same limitations (unarmed, natural or light), then things ARE square. They may not be logical, but at least they are fair. However, if it does not, and it is considered an "attack action" under the grappling lingo, then the "Attack Your Opponent" rule is flawed.

If this is correct, then I wish they would use ONE instead of AN and then also clarify if "Attack your Opponent" is an attack action, standard action of full-round action for each option. This reading between the lines is a load of crap. What a waste of time.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Under Attack your opponent, it says "You can make AN attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon or light weapon against another character you are grappling......"

That's right. And since it doesn't specify what sort of action it is while grappling, it's the same as what it would be if you weren't grappling... namely, an attack.

Just like Cast a Spell or Activate Magic Item aren't noted as being a move action, standard action, or in place of an attack... they take the same action they would take if you were not grappling.

So the +20 BAB fighter can indeed stab someone four times with his shortsword.

-Hyp.

 

[Izerath]

And therein lies the problem

So the +20 BAB fighter can indeed stab someone four times with his shortsword.

-Hyp.

And therein lies the root of my disagreement.

Cap the natural weapons but not the manufactured ones? Sounds hardly fair. Guess I'll have to await my answer from the Sage.

Izerath