Grappling Animals.

[youspoonybard]

PHB 3.5 156. "You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling...You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons."

"If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks..."

This bear has Claw claw bite, and is grappling a poor mage. She's really a Druid, and has a BAB of +7, lets say.

Can she:
1) Claw Claw (same claw)?
2) Claw Bite?
3) Only get 1 attack, no matter what.

 

[Waldo]

Since you have claw, claw, bite. I'll assume your druid is a brown or polar bear. As such, your druid has Improved Grab, since Wild Shape functions as polymorph and polymorph grants Extraordinary attacks. If your Druid uses Improved Grab, then you could deal two grapple checks at +7/+2, since your BAB is +7, each dealing claw damage, since the claw is the attack that initiated the Improved Grab.

You could instead replace a grapple check with a natural weapon attack at -4, if you feel that an attack against AC is easier to win than a grapple. According to the natural attacks entry, secondary natural attacks always retain their negatives, even if used as a single attack. Therefore, uou could attack with your claw twice with a BAB +7 and the progression would be +7/+2. You could replace any claw attack with a bite attack at an additional -5, due to the secondary attack penalty. I could see DMs arguing that at least one attack needs to be a claw, but I would probably let it slide.

If you were an animal that didn't have Improved Grab, like a black bear, then your grapple checks would do subdual damage appropriate to creature size, and again 2 attacks at +7/+2. Or you could attack with a natural weapon twice to do natural weapon damage at a -4 to hit, again at +7/+2 (+3/-2 after the -4).

The wierd part about this, is that a Druid, or any animal, with very high BAB will get MORE attacks while grappling than when attacking normally, since the rules say higher BAB do not give extra natural attacks during a full attack, but the grappling rules clearly states that you can attack as many times as your BAB allows. A brown bear with a BAB +16 would get +16/11/6/1, more than it's normal three natural attacks. An advanced giant never gets more slams, but does get more melee attacks as it advances. If this bothers you, you could say the maximum number of grapple attacks is set to the animal's full number of normal attacks. Personally, I think animals make ferocious and effective grapplers and wouldn't worry about it.

Hope that helps.

 

[youspoonybard]

Thanks a bunch!

I was just worried that, since you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, normally, I'd only get 1 attack a round, since I could only use 1 natural weapon.

As a DM, I like my animals nasty. As a Druid player, I like my animals nasty.

 

[Tonguez]

I think animals make ferocious and effective grapplers and wouldn't worry about it.

Hope that helps.

I think the idea of more attacks during a grapple is sound and makes sense to me. When not grappled an attacker needs to maintain balance, aim and strike. Onced grappled balance and aim aren't issues and its all about striking as often as possible. (the whole reason why one should never get into a maul with a wild animal)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Personally, I think animals make ferocious and effective grapplers and wouldn't worry about it.

It's why Paladin/Rogues are so nasty.

The horse grapples you, and the Pal/Rog gets his sneak attacks...

-Hyp.

 

[Waldo]

Now there's an interesting abuse of rules.

I think one could easily maintain that a creature without any digits would have an awful time 'grappling' someone. Otherwise, rodeo riders would be in REAL trouble.

I think you could also maintain that a person could not be mounted on a grappling animal, nor could the mount enter a grapple without a) taking the paladin with him into grapple mode, b) tossing said paladin on his butt as his horse tumbles around 'grappling' with its hooves.

Although I guess there's very little to prevent your dire lion mount from savaging someone as you paladin with the heart of a dishonorable ruffian pokes him in tender places. Assuming he wasn't mounted on it of course.

 

[youspoonybard]

Actually, I'm thinking of using Animal Growthed bears to drag people around, while riding a mount and using a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes to have them provoke tons of opportunities inside my threatened area, and have me and my allies get lotsa stabs.