Grappling & Natural Attacks

[MarauderX]

We had a grapple happen last time with a Dire Bear grappling an opponent and pinning him. Once pinned, does the Dire Bear get iterative attacks (2 paws & 1 bite) on the foe it just pinned? Or just one a round?

 

[Legildur]

Dire Bear has a BAB of +9. So it would be eligible to make 2 grapple attacks due to BAB (at BAB +9/+4, i.e. grapple attacks at +23/+18).

Once a pin is established, "You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple....You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent...."

As you can see, 'attack your opponent' is not an option in a pin. Therefore the Dire Bear could not use its claw/claw/bite routine in a pin, but could damage his opponent with two grapple checks.

I believe that the FAQ may contain an example.

 

[frankthedm]

As you can see, 'attack your opponent' is not an option in a pin. Therefore the Dire Bear could not use its claw/claw/bite routine in a pin, but could damage his opponent with two grapple checks.

More than you might think, every grapple check the dire bear succeds on subsequent rounds deals claw damage thanks to improved grab.

A Pin from the dire bear deals 2d4+10 [claw]
A "Damage your opponent" from the dire bear deals 1d4+10 nonlethal and 2d4+10 [claw]

Improved Grab
If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action... If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

 

[Brother MacLaren]

As the player responsible for the dire bear, I think it's overpowered to give the bear claw damage on *every* opposed grapple check it wins. Here's why:
Round 1: Attack with claw then use Improved Grab. Opponent makes 3 iterative grapple checks to escape and fails -- does the bear do claw damage each time it wins one of those opposed checks?
Round 2: Pin opponent, doing claw damage and, if it is allowed iterative attacks, use the "damage your opponent option" for claw damage again. Opponent tries 3 checks to escape and presumably fails each time, taking still more claw damage.

Rather, I'd just give it the claw damage on the "damage your opponent" grapple checks that it takes.

As to how many checks it gets per round... one interpretation is that the bear gets only one grapple check per round, since it is NOT allowed multiple attacks due to BAB (uses natural weapons).
Another is that the BAB allows iterative *grapple checks,* just not iterative *attacks.*
As to using multiple natural weapons in a grapple, the text for "Rake" in the MM glossary clarifies that creatures without Rake can only use one natural weapon in a grapple.

 

[GlassJaw]

From the FAQ:

"How many attacks does a creature with multiple
natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many
grapple checks can it make in a round?

Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with
only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a
–4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can
attack with either a claw or its bite.
The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional
claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and
which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM
314).
A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of
attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the
grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s
weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its
base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally
make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal
damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size
(1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth,
plus its Strength modifier).
A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple
check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to
+15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. The dire bear, for
example, may make two grapple checks in place of attacks,
thanks to its base attack bonus of +9: one using its full BAB
and the second using its BAB –5."

 

[frankthedm]

As the player responsible for the dire bear, I think it's overpowered to give the bear claw damage on *every* opposed grapple check it wins. Here's why:
Round 1: Attack with claw then use Improved Grab. Opponent makes 3 iterative grapple checks to escape and fails -- does the bear do claw damage each time it wins one of those opposed checks?
Round 2: Pin opponent, doing claw damage and, if it is allowed iterative attacks, use the "damage your opponent option" for claw damage again. Opponent tries 3 checks to escape and presumably fails each time, taking still more claw damage.

That is why I feel the "during successive rounds" should be read as applying to those grapple checks that happen on the bear's action, not all the grapple checks he opposes on others actions.

As to how many checks it gets per round... one interpretation is that the bear gets only one grapple check per round, since it is NOT allowed multiple attacks due to BAB (uses natural weapons).

Thats not how that works, addtional attacks are gained by having the BAB. "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons." does not prevent creatures with natural weapons from getting addtional BAB based attacks. They just rarely get the chance to use them. Grapple is one of those places.

Another is that the BAB allows iterative *grapple checks,* just not iterative *attacks.*

BAB does allow that.

If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

As to using multiple natural weapons in a grapple, the text for "Rake" in the MM glossary clarifies that creatures without Rake can only use one natural weapon in a grapple.

That is because...

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

...is a BAB based, nuking the option of multiple attacks with natural weapons in a grapple. Improved grab however adds the natural weapon's damage onto all grapple checks for the critter.