Grappling Problems

[Anubis]

SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS SUPPOSED TO WORK! I'M BEGGING YOU ALL! PLEASE!

Are grapple checks made per person or per round? Does grab and hold happen at the same time during the same attack? What about things like Vampires, can they use energy drain instead of unarmed damage? Do you get a grapple check per attack while already in a grapple?

I've been trying to figure this out for HOURS and can't make heads nor tails of it. There are absolutely NO clarified rules on grappling, and everything is completely vague. I have a Vampire grappling five shambling mounds right now and it's taking FOREVER because they can't hurt her with constrict and she can't win grapples.

HOW DOES GRAPPLING WORK? PLEASE EXPLAIN EVERYTHING!

 

[Douane]

I'm the exact opposite of an experton this, so I will refrain from trying to explain it, but perhaps this link will help. Sean K. Reynolds put on his site a detailed step-by-step guide to grappling.


Hope this helps!

Folkert

 

[Darklone]

For the vampire... she can still use her slam attack during a grapple (as long as she's not pinned).

 

[Anubis]

And what about the constrict ability? They don't "pin" the opponent per the rules, or at least the rules do not state any such thing. That link was only moderately helpful, as it did not get into any of the more complex issues.

Can you make a melee attack against someone in a grapple? How do the normal rules apply to things with constrict, etc.? What can and can't be done?

I hope they fix this incredibly silly system in the revised books.

 

[Anubis]

Oh, another thing, am I correct in thinking that things with multiple attacks can do multiple grapple checks in the same turn with NO PENALTY? For creatures with constrict, this seems COMPLETELY TERRIBLY over powered, as it makes some things like the shambling mound five or six times tougher than they're supposed to be.

What are ALL the grappling rules? Oh, and are these gonna be fixed finally?

 

[Anubis]

In fact, looking again . . . This all implies that during a grapple, and shambling mound gets two attacks, and every hit does 2d6+5 damage PLUS an additional 2d6+7 constriction damage PER HIT!

This would easily bump the CR of all such creatures by 7 or 8!

 

[Anubis]

Argh . . . I need answers! Help! I am in the middle of a combat right now and have NO CLUE how to run it because of these stupid grappling rules!

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Before a grapple a shambling mound would make attacks as normal (damage applied), any hits activating it's improved grapple ability, and then on a successful grapple the constrict damage is applied.

Once a creature is grappled by the shambling mound on a successful grapple check it ONLY does the constrict damage. A creature can make a number of grapple attempts per the number of attacks they possess.

Note that in the shambling mound description it specifically states that it cannot make attack actions while constricting.

Relax a bit, the rules aren't too difficult to get, just takes time for them to sink in if you haven't used it much before is all. Best of luck with your combat

(incidentally why 5 shambling mounds? They are solitary creatures afterall.)

edit- if you happen to know a particular battle is coming up you might want to check these things beforehand, if you didn't condsider this an excellent chacne to familiarize yourself. Also the SKR summary should have answwered these questions for you.

 

[Anubis]

I still think it's overpowering . . .

The shambling mound gets two attacks, and the character in question does as well.

That means, unless the character is REALLY strong, the character is as good as dead when fighting a shambling mound as it will get constrict twice (for it's own attacks), and then twice again if the character fails on his own attacks (two more right there). That could take out a Level 15 character no problem.

Or am I reading it wrong?

I would think a character can only make one grapple check per turn. Makes no sense to allow multiples, especially considering however overpowered and munchkin constrict can be.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

That means, unless the character is REALLY strong, the character is as good as dead when fighting a shambling mound as it will get constrict twice (for it's own attacks), and then twice again if the character fails on his own attacks (two more right there). That could take out a Level 15 character no problem.

Yes, you are reading it wrong.

When a character is grappled with a shambling mound and they attempt a grapple check to do somekind of action (unarmed damage, break grapple, etc.) if the grapple check is lost they fail their attempt. They do not suffer damage by the opposing grappler. This does not occur until the opposing grappler's turn and the shambling mound makes it's attacks (grapple checks).

I would think a character can only make one grapple check per turn. Makes no sense to allow multiples, especially considering however overpowered and munchkin constrict can be.

The grapple rules are as they have been so far stated. If you don't like them you can ask about it in the house rule forum, a pretty good forum here on ENWorld. As far as my experience (quite abit with grapples) the system is more than satisfactory, and works well (though not as clear reading now as it will be in 3.5e).

Constrict is not too big of a deal, once in a grapple it's just a slightly more damaging natural attack. The large effect is the attack, grapple, and constrict ability (which likely will happen only once, unless the PC escapes the grasp and is foolish enough to stick around).

I'm guessing you had a 15th level PC go up against 4 shambling mounds (an ECL of 10) and you were thinking no problem, right? Grappling is a serious condition that can multiply the difficulty of an encounter considerably. Even an orc who grapples the 10th level wizard (in a 10th lvl party) will suddenly alter the difficulty of the party's encounter.

Luckily a shambling mound moves rather slowly and the PC in question could have just stayed away and just made ranged attacks. Going into melee with 4 shambling mounds would have been a poor choice even for a 15th level character. I mean, might as well douse yourself in gasoline and rush in to fight a fire elemental. Remember CRs and such are calculated for a party of adventurers with varying skills, not one high level PC. This same PC would begin having trouble in attacked by several numerous opponents and was surrounded.

You mentioned Vampires so I assume the PC is a vampire, if so if they began losing they could just turn to gaseous form and escape. But I think your problem with the scenario is thinking that the ECL 10 should be perfectly beatable by the 15th level lone PC. The encounter is perfectly beatable by a 10th level party (as the rules were designed for, so no getting upset over the game design) and potentially beatable by a 15th level lone PC. Though the PC has to use tactics to his advantage since he is already tactically at a disadvantage (significantly outnumbered).