Grappling Spirits

[Meixuejeni]

I know, I know. MM pg. 311: "Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled." I'm taking the Animal Shen PrCl from Dragon 319, and one of my abilities is a hybrid form. "A Shen in hybrid form... ...has unarmed attacks considered as magic, ghost-touch weapons. A Shen in hybrid form can even wrestle spirits, and is able to grab and grapple incorporeal creatures." Spirits don't have strength scores and have a BAB but no grapple bonuses. Is there a rule somewhere covering this or is their grapple ability simply really bad against someone with my ability? Also, if I grapple a spirit do their touch attacks automatically hit? It doesn't say anything about concentration checks for draining abilities and that makes me a tad nervous.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Spirits don't have strength scores and have a BAB but no grapple bonuses. Is there a rule somewhere covering this or is their grapple ability simply really bad against someone with my ability?

One could make a case for Dexterity taking the place of Strength:

It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks.

and

A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier.

A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, and an incorporeal creature applies its Dexterity modifier to its melee attacks...

Also, if I grapple a spirit do their touch attacks automatically hit? It doesn't say anything about concentration checks for draining abilities and that makes me a tad nervous.

They would have to use the "Attack opponent with light weapon" option, to make an attack with a natural weapon at -4.

-Hyp.

 

[Meixuejeni]

Thanks Pirate

Smurfy! Thanks very much. That pretty much puts that question to bed. I'll probably just stick to non-grappling melee attacks, but its good to know how to resolve those infrequent uses of spirit grapple.

 

[mvincent]

Note that ghost actually do have a strength score (they just rarely have a chance to use it).

 

[taliesin15]

Aye! But sometimes, the ghost is just looking for a little friggin'-in-the-rigging...does your blade have all the length?

 

[Pyrex]

There's zero in the rules to support it, given that Cha is already used in several places to replace Con for creatures with no Con score, I'd use Cha here instead of Dex as well.

Though if you equate Cha to mentalCon, you could also reasonably equate Int to mentalDex and Wis to mentalStr when appropriate.