Grappling with a Flaming Sphere, a burning Web & a trapped Brown Bear?

[DrSpunj]

Last night my 4th level party fought the Troglodytes and Brown Bear in the Forge of Fury. While the Trogs were nothing more than window dressing (except for their sickening stench) the Brown Bear proved to be a significant challenge, but a couple questions came up during the battle.

The Bear was doing quite well after using Improved Grab to mess with the sickened Elven Fighter/Rogue. The Dwarf Fighter moved up to help his ally out and started laying into the beast. I tried to use Improve Grab with the -20 penalty to damage the Elf with one Claw, and use the remaining Claw and Bite to attack the Dwarf. The Bear lost the opposed Grapple check.

1) What happens? Since the Bear lost, but it was the Bear's turn, I'm fairly confident the Elf is still grappled (you can only escape a grapple on your turn) and that the Elf takes no damage from the Claw attack. Now, since he lost the Grapple check with the -20 penalty, what are the bear's options? Is he limited to using his other Claw and Bite attack against the Elf? Or can he still use them against the Dwarf, but is still considered grappled so loses his Dex vs everybody except the Elf?

2) On the Elf's turn, does the Bear have to take the same -20 penalty as the Elf tries to Escape the grapple? Or is that -20 penalty only there for that one special grapple check? Does it matter for later grapple checks in the round if the Bear succeeded at the grapple check on his turn?

The Wizard then cast Flaming Sphere and rolled it into one of the 4 spaces the Brown Bear occupied (Bear made the Reflex save).

3) Since the Brown Bear and Elf PC were grappling, is the PC actually in just a single square since he's a Medium-sized Elf? Leaving the other 3 squares the Brown Bear occupies as valid targets for the Flaming Sphere? Or do the Elf and Bear "share" all 4 squares here since they're grappling? The Elf was mauled pretty badly, so the Wizard really didn't want to hurt his ally with the Flaming Sphere, but argued the Bear is Large so he should be able to burn the bear and not the Elf.

Because of the Flaming Sphere and an animal's natural fear of fire, the Bear won the next opposed Grapple check and used the Move option to drag the Elf 20' away. That's a Standard action according to the PHB.

4) What can the Bear do with it's remaining Move Action? An intelligent opponent might be able to do something nifty, but I couldn't come up with anything for the Bear. Any ideas? I would've loved for him to move further away from the fire, but he doesn't have another Standard Action this turn to drag the Elf with him, and since he used a Standard Action to Grapple-Move with the Elf, he didn't have access to a Full Attack Action to make use of his Claws or Bite, right?

The remainder of the round the party took potshots with Xbows, or healed the Dwarf (who needed it). On his next turn the Wizard used his Move action to roll the Flaming Sphere into the Bear's space again (Bear made the Reflex save). He then used a Standard Action to cast Web over the entire area (he wanted to trap the Bear from running away with the Elf, he didn't think about the Flaming Sphere burning some of the Web away). The Bear failed that Reflex save so was immobilized by the Web, the Elf made his save so was now Sickened, Entangled & Grappled but not immobilized.

Here's the relevant passage from the Web spell:

The strands of a web spell are flammable. A magic flaming sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round. All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames.

5) Does "set the webs alight" mean the first round a Web encounters fire only a 5' square is burned, but the next round any square surrounding that one is burned away, and so on? Does a Web keep burning after being lit? Or do you have to burn each 5' square individually to clear it?

6) Does a large creature with a 10' space take potentially 2d4 fire damage for each of his 4 squares? If yes, does he get a bonus on his Strength or Escape Artist checks if the Web is affecting only 3 of his squares? Only 2? 1?

I ask the latter because the letter of the rules seems to indicate that it's 2d4 for each 5' square, and even a single square of Web can immobilize a Large or bigger creature on a failed save. If so, that makes Web a VERY excellent spell against Large or bigger creatures; they get screwed both ways.

Thanks in advance for any help!

DrSpunj

 

[GodPhoenix]

Wow.

Um...I can help with 3)

The elf would be considered vulnerable to the flaming sphere in any of the bear's squares. Think of the two as rolling and flopping around in that 10x10 area. I know if a bear had me I'd be wiggling like crazy to get away.

It's similar to a person riding a horse. You can attack the rider from any square next to the horse's 10x10 area...and don't have to specify attacking the front right square to hit the rider.

 

[Nail]

Erp.

Not bad, DrSpunj, not bad.

...oh, you want solutions? Oh. Well, err.....look at the time! I'm off to class!

 

[jgsugden]

This is not an area of expertise for me, but I'll go read the SRD ...

1.) The bear has grappled a foe, then decides to change his hold from a normal grapple to an improved grab hold. The rules are not 100% clear on this issue, but it seems that if the improved grab check fails, the target should remain grappled with the bear. The bear should be able to use its other claw attack to try an improved grab / hold against the target as well. If both fail, it seems that the target should remain grappled, but that the bear would be considered grappled as well. As a grappled creature, the bear's bite could be aimed only at the target of the grapple - the elf.

2.) On the elf's turn, it must go against the full grapple check of the bear. The -20 is there while the bear is using improved grab. It failed to switch from a normal grapple to an improved grab hold, so it is still grappling normally and gets to use the full grapple bonus.

3.) Although I do not see it specified anywhere, it makes sense that the mounted rule should apply to grapplers - you and your grappling 'buddy' occupy all the same squares. You can't flaming sphere the bear without getting the elf.

4.) I have no idea of what else the bear might do with a move action after using a standard to move from the fire.

5.) 5 square feet (I assume they mean 5' X 5') is burned ina round. It doesn't seem to me that the fire will automatically spread. It seems to me that you need to move the fire dource (flaming sword, flaming sphere, torch, etc ...) to a new location to have it burn the web.

6.) The web spell specifies each creature will take 2d4 damage. It does not indicate that larger creatures will take more damage. If you applied logic like that, a fireball would do more damage to a stone giant than to a halfling.

 

[DrSpunj]

Thanks for the answers, jgsugden. I thought I'd scared everyone off!

I agree with everything you've said, so let me try to put this together mentally, and let me know if you (or anyone else brave enough to chime in here) agree:

The Bear and Elf are Grappling, so they both effectively share/have a space of 10'. Even though the Flaming Sphere is delineated as a 3' sphere, it affects the entire 10' space because they are grappling/wrestling/rolling around (maybe? see below). When the Web hits, the Flaming Sphere burns away the webbing in that same 10' space (the remainder of the Web is unaffected), thereby causing 2d4 damage to both the Bear and Elf. Because the Web has been burned away, neither the Bear nor Elf are Entangled or Immobilized (regardless of their Reflex saves), but are, of course, still Grappling.

Does that seem right? fair? balanced? To both the Bear and the Elf?

The thing that doesn't sit right is that Web says a fire source only burns away a 5' square. If we go with that, then both the Bear and Elf take 2d4 of fire damage, but are still Entangled/Immobilized by the 3 other Webbed squares making up their 10' space. Next round (or with a different fire source) you can potentially light 1, 2 or even 3 more of those squares (heck, just moving the Flaming Sphere around with a single Move Action would do it) and do an additional 2d4 for each square. That translates into a total of 8d4 for the Bear (and by extension, the Elf since they're Grappling and sharing the space).

Which version is correct?

This is the last thing I'd like to set straight. Thanks for the help with the rest of it!

DrSpunj

 

[Terry Edwards]

No, no, no. When a creature with Improved Grab is grappling a creature at least one size category smaller than itself it may choose to use it's improved grappling body part at -20 or grapple normally. There is no check needed to switch between the two grappling modes but it is a round by round choice so the brown bear from the example could choose to take -20 on it's grapple check in which case it is not considered grappled (It threatens squares, keeps it's Dex bonus and movement) and may move with it's grappled opponent (no grapple check required, with improved Grab you only need to be able to bear the weight [no pun intended]) or attack other opponents or use any other abilities it may have. Meanwhile the Elf from the example is grappled by the brown bears claw, in this case the brown bear makes a grapple check at -20 against the elf. If successful the bear deals claw damage, if it fails there is no damage inflicted but the elf and claw are still grappling. When the elf's turn comes around it is still grappling with the claw and not the entire brown bear so he/she makes an opposed grapple check against the brown bear (the brown bear's grapple check is at -20) to (more than likely) attempt escape.

That should clear up the improved grapple questions.

For non-targeted spells such as your flaming sphere I would treat is as an attack and roll randomly to see who gets burned. I would give better odds to the burning bear though.

As far as what the bear can do after moving from the fire...Well it should not have made a grapple check to move as I stated earlier (due to improved grab). It should move normally leaving a standard action open to do whatever it wants.

 

[DrSpunj]

There is no check needed to switch between the two grappling modes...<snip>

That should clear up the improved grapple questions.

Wow! As soon as you pointed that out and cleared it up, you're right, everything comes together. It really helps me mentally to break the grapple types into "Normal Grapple" and "Improved Grab Grapple", especially when for the latter you referenced the Elf grappling "the Claw", not "the Bear".

Thanks!

For non-targeted spells such as your flaming sphere I would treat is as an attack and roll randomly to see who gets burned. I would give better odds to the burning bear though.

Hmm, well, the Bear does occupy all 4 of those squares, so I think the Bear has to make a Reflex check for the Flaming Sphere no matter what. But I could see imposing an equal chance percentage roll to see if the Elf is affected at all. That is, since the Elf as a Medium creature is only big enough to fill one of those 4 squares, there's a 25% chance the Flaming Sphere could affect him. If it does, the Elf would of course still get his Reflex save to avoid any damage.

That seems fair even if it's not supported in the Rules anywhere.

As far as what the bear can do after moving from the fire...Well it should not have made a grapple check to move as I stated earlier (due to improved grab). It should move normally leaving a standard action open to do whatever it wants.

Right! I see that now. I'm glad, too, because it just didn't seem right that the Bear couldn't drag it's new "toy" with him away from the fire and not get a single chance to Claw or chew on the little guy the entire time. I felt like the whole round was wasted. Clearly I just did it wrong, but it ended up being to the player's and party's benefit, so I don't think they'll mind.

Anyone else want share their opinion here? Nail? Hyp? Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

<takes deep breath>

No, no, no. When a creature with Improved Grab is grappling a creature at least one size category smaller than itself it may choose to use it's improved grappling body part at -20 or grapple normally.

(checks SRD) Right. And the "-20" is a once per turn decision, rather than once per attack. The -20 applies until the bears next turn, at which point it can change it, if desired.

While it has that -20, it retains its Dex and can move normally. Which is pretty cool, IMHO. So the bear could both try to damage (an attack, standard action) and move.

As for the flaming sphere:
I *think* the bear (and any large creature) gets the short end of the stick here. Ouch indeed! I'm not sure I (as a DM) like that. Hmmmmmmm. .....but as a player, that's great!

Either way, the elf is sharing the space with the bear (just as a rider is with his mount), and so the elf may also take damage from the flaming sphere.


As for the web only covering 3/4ths of the Bear:
.....tell me again why this is a 2nd level spell? Wow. (Manditory Bad Guy Equipment(tm): a magic item that casts Web or one that casts Freedom of Movement). Yep, the bear's still entangled. Yeesh.

 

[jgsugden]

When a creature with Improved Grab is grappling a creature at least one size category smaller than itself it may choose to use it's improved grappling body part at -20 or grapple normally. There is no check needed to switch between the two grappling modes but it is a round by round choice so the brown bear from the example could choose to take -20 on it's grapple check in which case it is not considered grappled (It threatens squares, keeps it's Dex bonus and movement) and may move with it's grappled opponent (no grapple check required, with improved Grab you only need to be able to bear the weight [no pun intended]) or attack other opponents or use any other abilities it may have. Meanwhile the Elf from the example is grappled by the brown bears claw, in this case the brown bear makes a grapple check at -20 against the elf. If successful the bear deals claw damage, if it fails there is no damage inflicted but the elf and claw are still grappling. When the elf's turn comes around it is still grappling with the claw and not the entire brown bear so he/she makes an opposed grapple check against the brown bear (the brown bear's grapple check is at -20) to (more than likely) attempt escape.

This does *not* follow the rules.

The rules for improved grab say (with emphasis added):

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent.

The creature has the option on how to conduct the whole grapple, not the option to handle individual rounds of the grapple differently. If it grapples someone with the -20 penalty, the -20 penalty is there for the entire grapple and the creature is treated as if it is not grappling. If it decides not to take the penalty, it follows normal grapple rules. If it wants to switch from one method to the other, it must start a new grapple. The only unanswered question is whether the grappler must end the initial grapple before trying to begin the other type of grapple.

Further, your version leads to abuse.

Example: Elf attacks bear (initiative 21). Immediately following, the bear grapples the elf on an attack without taking -20(initiative 20). On the elf's turn, it tries to escape, but fails against the bear's huge grapple check. The bear then switches to an improved grab and performs other action. Until the elf's next turn (almost a full round away), the elf is treated as grappled, but the bear is not and the bear never had to win a grapple check by 20. In the hands of a PC druid with a rogue ally, this creates a very easy sneak attack opportunity.

That is a huge (and unfair) advantage for the bear.

 

[jgsugden]

Regarding web/flaming sphere: I would not treat the flaming sphere as being in all 4 squares. It would burn only one square of the web per turn. The sphere is not being wrestled, so I would not have it occupy all the same squares as the bear.