Grease spell confusion

[Quasqueton]

From the SRD - grease spell:

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature entering the area or caught in it when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or slip, skid, and fall. Those that successfully save can move at half speed across the surface. However, those that remain in the area must each make a new saving throw every round to avoid falling and to be able to move. The DM should adjust saving throws by circumstance.
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while objects wielded or employed by creatures receive a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made each round the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item.

A combatant in a greased area must make a Ref save when the spell is cast, and on his turn in the round. If it fails he falls prone and cannot do anything. He must wait till his next turn to make another Ref save. If successful he can stand up and move out. Am I correct in these statements?

Now, if a combatant successfully makes his save, can he (stand up if prone, and) attack normally? Must he make a save for such an action? The spell description only mentions movement.

Say my party mage greases a section of a 10' wide hallway right in front of the party's front line. Can the enemy in the greased area continue to fight so long as they make their saves each round?

This came up last game session (a different scenario though), and I don't think we were doing it correctly. And though the spell description doesn't mention it, several of my fellow players were arguing that the grease is flamable and could be lit up to damage the victims caught in it. One argument was that the spell is from the conjuration school, so it actually creates normal grease. I don't really agree with it, but I'm not the DM in this case. (And the DM didn't really weigh in on the effect -- I just ignored that possibility as the casting mage.)

Quasqueton

 

[WattsHumphrey]

I believe that the grease spell should be flammable, as I believe it creates grease... but I don't have a rules reference for this. Additionally, I understand your dilemma, as I have this same discussion with other GM's occasionally, and some believe it's flammable and some think it's not.

 

[LokiDR]

A combatant in a greased area must make a Ref save when the spell is cast, and on his turn in the round. If it fails he falls prone and cannot do anything. He must wait till his next turn to make another Ref save. If successful he can stand up and move out. Am I correct in these statements?

Yes

Now, if a combatant successfully makes his save, can he (stand up if prone, and) attack normally? Must he make a save for such an action? The spell description only mentions movement.

If you make the save, you are not encumbered other than moving at half speed.

Say my party mage greases a section of a 10' wide hallway right in front of the party's front line. Can the enemy in the greased area continue to fight so long as they make their saves each round?

Yes

This came up last game session (a different scenario though), and I don't think we were doing it correctly. And though the spell description doesn't mention it, several of my fellow players were arguing that the grease is flamable and could be lit up to damage the victims caught in it. One argument was that the spell is from the conjuration school, so it actually creates normal grease. I don't really agree with it, but I'm not the DM in this case. (And the DM didn't really weigh in on the effect -- I just ignored that possibility as the casting mage.)

This is a long running debate. The spell does not say it can not be lit, so it seems that it can. The DM can rule either way.

 

[Rel]

On the matter of flamability, I'd say not. I'd look at it in context with the Web spell.

Web has a primary effect of immobilising enemies. Secondarily, as is spelled out the description, it can be set on fire and causes damage to anyone caught in it as it burns.

Grease doesn't stipulate this and I therefore would not assume that it is flamable. I also feel that it goes somewhat beyond the parameters of what a 1st level spell should do in terms of flexibility. It is already very useful and flexible, it doesn't need to do damage too, in my opinion.

On the bright side, this means that enemies can't set it on fire to get rid of it or escape it, as they could with Web.

 

[LokiDR]

On the matter of flamability, I'd say not. I'd look at it in context with the Web spell.

Web has a primary effect of immobilising enemies. Secondarily, as is spelled out the description, it can be set on fire and causes damage to anyone caught in it as it burns.

Grease doesn't stipulate this and I therefore would not assume that it is flamable. I also feel that it goes somewhat beyond the parameters of what a 1st level spell should do in terms of flexibility. It is already very useful and flexible, it doesn't need to do damage too, in my opinion.

Telekinisis does not say it allows you to move yourself. Arcane sight does not say it outlines invisible creatures. Both of these are valid uses that the designers did not anticipate.

The rules give limits. If the grease spell was not flamable, the rules should state that. Otherwise, the DM must determine the effect.

On balance, it is at most 1d6 damage a round for the duration of the spell only if the enemy is in that space. This only applies after casting the spell and then lighting it (at least 2 actions). That is far from overpowered for a first level spell. Magic missle does up to 5d4+5, never missing, not resistable, and effecting etheral creatures.

 

[Pielorinho]

Pour some vegetable oil on your driveway and hold a match to it. It won't go up in flames. Neither should the grease spell.

Fats are flammable, but not all fats are super-flammable, and fats spread in a layer on a cold surface are more likely to sizzle than they are to leap into flames.

Daniel

 

[Stalker0]

The rules give limits.

I agree, allow the players imagination to fill the whole void created by the rules boundaries.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

Pour some vegetable oil on your driveway and hold a match to it. It won't go up in flames. Neither should the grease spell.

Fats are flammable, but not all fats are super-flammable, and fats spread in a layer on a cold surface are more likely to sizzle than they are to leap into flames.

Daniel

I'm with Daniel 100% on the flammability of the grease spell.

Maitre D

 

[Rel]

Telekinisis does not say it allows you to move yourself. Arcane sight does not say it outlines invisible creatures. Both of these are valid uses that the designers did not anticipate.

The rules give limits. If the grease spell was not flamable, the rules should state that. Otherwise, the DM must determine the effect.

On balance, it is at most 1d6 damage a round for the duration of the spell only if the enemy is in that space. This only applies after casting the spell and then lighting it (at least 2 actions). That is far from overpowered for a first level spell. Magic missle does up to 5d4+5, never missing, not resistable, and effecting etheral creatures.

I don't find this to be a compelling argument (I'm not claiming that it is invalid, it just doesn't work for me). There are lots of things the rules don't specify that I wouldn't allow because they seem (to me) to lie outside the specific parameters of what the spell could and should allow.

The Grease spell doesn't say that someone coated with it CAN'T "move like greased lightning", allowing them to "skate" across even surfaces at Speed 50 provided they make a DC20 Balance check every round. Just because it isn't banned in the spell description doesn't mean I think it should be allowed.

Which is not to say that creative use of spells is discouraged in my games. If somebody wanted to target a fellow party member with Grease to help them escape from being tied up or Webbed or to squeeze through a tight space, I'd give them a Circumstance Bonus in a heartbeat. I don't think that it is assumed that any grease will burn and therefore don't feel the need to add a potential damage component to the spell.

Consider that we're talking about a spell that lasts for 1 round per level. If somebody takes 1d6/round from flaming grease, you've got the potential for a 5th level caster to do 5d6 damage (assuming that you get a fellow party member or your familiar with a Tindertwig to light it) to multiple targets in the area of effect if they fail all their Reflex saves (a distinct possibility against low dex mook fighter types). That's like a mini fireball for the cost of a 1st level spell.

I'm not swayed by a damage comparison to Magic Missile, which takes a 9th level caster to get full benefit from (you could be doing up to 9d6 with Fiery Grease by that point). Plus, Magic Missile ONLY deals damage and doesn't have nearly the creative possibilities for utility that Grease does.

Apples and Oranges if you asked me. Oranges that are still very nice, even if they don't catch on fire easily and burn for 1d6 damage every round.

 

[LokiDR]

I don't find this to be a compelling argument (I'm not claiming that it is invalid, it just doesn't work for me). There are lots of things the rules don't specify that I wouldn't allow because they seem (to me) to lie outside the specific parameters of what the spell could and should allow.

If the rules do not prevent you from doing it, you can try it. Casting web to break your fall or using it as a defence against ranged attacks. I can not find any place where an action is not disallowed by a spell that I would change. Do you have any other examples?

The Grease spell doesn't say that someone coated with it CAN'T "move like greased lightning", allowing them to "skate" across even surfaces at Speed 50 provided they make a DC20 Balance check every round. Just because it isn't banned in the spell description doesn't mean I think it should be allowed.

You know there is an item that works just like that. It keeps your feet coated in grease and increases your movement.

That said, the concept is "sliding for more movement". The players don't get to pick the rules the DM uses to cover this situation. The DM might say "cool. Balance DC 20 and you get 10' move movement per round from sliding". The concept is fine. The problem was implementation. The concept is not disallowed by the spell, so the player can try it. That doesn't the player will like how things turn out. That is where balance comes in.

Which is not to say that creative use of spells is discouraged in my games. If somebody wanted to target a fellow party member with Grease to help them escape from being tied up or Webbed or to squeeze through a tight space, I'd give them a Circumstance Bonus in a heartbeat.

So, what is different? The spell doesn't say it does that. It seems like you are just making an arbitrary decision, which doesn't help anyone.

I don't think that it is assumed that any grease will burn and therefore don't feel the need to add a potential damage component to the spell.

All forms of "grease" are fundamentally flamable. They are fat and oil. Both burn quite hot.

Consider that we're talking about a spell that lasts for 1 round per level. If somebody takes 1d6/round from flaming grease, you've got the potential for a 5th level caster to do 5d6 damage (assuming that you get a fellow party member or your familiar with a Tindertwig to light it) to multiple targets in the area of effect if they fail all their Reflex saves (a distinct possibility against low dex mook fighter types). That's like a mini fireball for the cost of a 1st level spell.

5d6 all at once is not out of par for a 1st level spell. That is the same average damage as a magic missle at 9th level.

Now, take a look at what has to happen for the character to take all 5d6: 5 failed saves, at least 2 actions of the PCs, and no action on the part of the target. That is assuming they don't just crawl out (a lower reflex save). Fire resist 5 or better makes the "trap" worthless. Flight likewise makes it an empty threat. They could be pulled out by an ally. Far from powerful.

I'm not swayed by a damage comparison to Magic Missile, which takes a 9th level caster to get full benefit from (you could be doing up to 9d6 with Fiery Grease by that point). Plus, Magic Missile ONLY deals damage and doesn't have nearly the creative possibilities for utility that Grease does.

No save vs 5 saves. That is assuming you don't rules the grease is burned up sooner. Grease's utility is more useful than this avoidable damage. The damage is just a nice way to expand this versitile spell.

Another ruling a DM could apply is that the grease can only be lit by extreem heat: 20 points of fire damage. No tindertwig.

Apples and Oranges if you asked me. Oranges that are still very nice, even if they don't catch on fire easily and burn for 1d6 damage every round.

I am not calling grease the same as magic missle. I am only showing they are on par, still both 1st level spells.