One of the problems is, if you listen sometimes to the 4e designers talk about the OGL and some third parties, you get the very impression that WotC/Hasbro does believe its a zero sum game.
Great City Campaign Setting...not 4e...sucks
- Thread starter Gundark
- Start date
One of the problems is, if you listen sometimes to the 4e designers talk about the OGL and some third parties, you get the very impression that WotC/Hasbro does believe its a zero sum game.
Darrin Drader
Explorer
I believe the specific term being tossed around is "hijacked."
Which is ironic, Since Merles was a thrid party designer who created Iron heros....which seems now looking back as a precursor to 4e.
*snort*
Mouseferatu
Hero
That may be, though I haven't heard it myself, but it's neither here nor there. It doesn't so much matter how people from the companies want to parse the issue, in terms of description. All I'm saying is that the discussion that we're having right here isn't taking into account the fact that a new edition changes the shape and composition of the market, and that therefore it's possible for Company A to gain X amount of customers without Company B losing the same amount in total--and vice-versa--because people are both entering and leaving the market as a whole.
To be successful, Paizo (or other 3E companies) don't have to come anywhere near WotC's numbers; they just need to gain numbers higher than those they had. And to be successful, 4E doesn't need to retain the entirety of 3E's market; it just needs to retain a large enough portion that any new blood it brings in makes up for the difference.
From where I stand, it appears that both are happening, which is a good thing for Paizo and WotC both, but that's purely my own anecdotal experience talking. Ultimately, all of this relies on numbers that none of us have access to, so really, we're all just spinning our wheels.
To be successful, Paizo (or other 3E companies) don't have to come anywhere near WotC's numbers; they just need to gain numbers higher than those they had. And to be successful, 4E doesn't need to retain the entirety of 3E's market; it just needs to retain a large enough portion that any new blood it brings in makes up for the difference.
From where I stand, it appears that both are happening, which is a good thing for Paizo and WotC both, but that's purely my own anecdotal experience talking. Ultimately, all of this relies on numbers that none of us have access to, so really, we're all just spinning our wheels.
LRonKnieval
First Post
Hey all,
Crucify me if you like, I was the one who made the decision to do the Great City as an OGL product. Work on the Great City project long before 4e was announced and it was designed with 3.5 rules in mind.
That said, anyone familiar with Mario's past work can tell you, he puts the stats in the back of his projects, not wired into the body of the work.
And his maps are just killer. Maps have no system, and three-dimensional maps of an entire city? I can't wait for my copy.
As far as the writing goes, the bulk of the text really centers on describing the City, locations on the map, and details the types of inhabitants, politics, culture, and types of adventures one can expect to find there. So really, with the exception of the chapters on NPC stats and the Bestiary, the rest of it is pretty systems neutral. In the foreward I mention how into the old Flying Buffalo stuff I am, which was all pretty much systems neutral, and I really tried to keep the Great City with a similar design feel. The text was geared towards supporting maps and creating a real mood to the city more than supporting any particular system. On that note, I'd also be curious as to who might be interested in a systems neutral version of the book as well.
Since we're working out a pretty cool series of adventures, I'm also curious to find out what people think would think about the possibilities of systems neutral adventures. It winds up being a little more effort on the part of a GM to be sure, but I'm growing pretty partial to the idea. Thoughts, comments, and suggestions welcome...
Tim Hitchcock
Crucify me if you like, I was the one who made the decision to do the Great City as an OGL product. Work on the Great City project long before 4e was announced and it was designed with 3.5 rules in mind.
That said, anyone familiar with Mario's past work can tell you, he puts the stats in the back of his projects, not wired into the body of the work.
And his maps are just killer. Maps have no system, and three-dimensional maps of an entire city? I can't wait for my copy.
As far as the writing goes, the bulk of the text really centers on describing the City, locations on the map, and details the types of inhabitants, politics, culture, and types of adventures one can expect to find there. So really, with the exception of the chapters on NPC stats and the Bestiary, the rest of it is pretty systems neutral. In the foreward I mention how into the old Flying Buffalo stuff I am, which was all pretty much systems neutral, and I really tried to keep the Great City with a similar design feel. The text was geared towards supporting maps and creating a real mood to the city more than supporting any particular system. On that note, I'd also be curious as to who might be interested in a systems neutral version of the book as well.
Since we're working out a pretty cool series of adventures, I'm also curious to find out what people think would think about the possibilities of systems neutral adventures. It winds up being a little more effort on the part of a GM to be sure, but I'm growing pretty partial to the idea. Thoughts, comments, and suggestions welcome...
Tim Hitchcock
BryonD
Hero
That is an interesting claim on the 4e side.
All we know is core books sales, which says very little about the real long term audience.
We know that a lot of people who are not going to 4e still bought the core books.
We know that some not insignificant fraction of the people who bought the core decided they didn't like it.
We obviously have no idea whatsoever if this new breed of more casual gamer will be as inclined to a) stick with it for long and b) buy any significant number of new books IF they do stick around.
Will 4e continue to be the market leader? Hell yes, by a long way.
Will 4e gain more revenue from "new blood" that it has driven off? That sounds a very tall order.
One big advantage Paizo has is that their fans are not attracted to the new shiny fad. The fresh spin of the PF rules set is a plus, for certain. But Paizo's fan are in it because they know they love the root 3X game and have for many years now.
BryonD
Hero
So, why did Paizo decide to go OGL *BEFORE* the GSL was released?
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Ok, seriously. If all the OP meant was that it sucks that the setting isn't for 4E (which infers that the actual product IS awesome, otherwise, he wouldn't be upset), can't the thread title be changed? As it reads now, it very much sounds like he's trashing the setting. That's what I thought when I saw it.
zacharythefirst
First Post
I'm currently running a heavily-houseruled Rolemaster variant, and I use 0one Games' maps all the time, regardless of system. You can't beat the price or the quality.
Yeah, when I saw that title, I thought "Great City Campaign Setting" was set in 4e, and it sucks.. but not because of 4e, rather because of other problems with the setting itself.
This is the opposite of what the OP meant, and what is actually going on. I had no idea whether the setting was 3e or 4e... so when reading that, it sounded completely bad towards the setting.
I'd suggest changing the title of the thread if possible, because it's utterly misleading and obviously not what the OP meant.
This is the opposite of what the OP meant, and what is actually going on. I had no idea whether the setting was 3e or 4e... so when reading that, it sounded completely bad towards the setting.
I'd suggest changing the title of the thread if possible, because it's utterly misleading and obviously not what the OP meant.
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