Great villain idea (need some advice)

[Xar]

I recently began a Planescape campaign, and now I am working on the grand plot of it. First I thought I would use the traditional "introduce baddie - fight his lackleys - kill baddie at the end" method, but then I got a great idea when I was thinking about one of the main aspects of the setting, namely "The Unity of Rings" (everything goes in cycles, the end is also the beginning).

What if the PC's suddenly find themselves harrassed by mysterious, powerful antagonists? They can't find out who or what they are, and why they are trying to stop them, but they clearly seem to know where they can hurt the PC's the best without killing them. They also make use of lackeys to spy upon them (I was thinking about using the Keepers, powerful entities resembling the agents from the Matrix). Knowing that someone tries to stop them, the players will try to accomplish their main goal even harder. Then, at the end of the campaign when they finally succeed in their plan, the players find out that their main villains are actually themselves from some future time period, trying to change their own past... And only then do the PC's realize what they have done... (it would be even more evil if they could kill some of their future selves, who now grew really desperate, in some huge combat at the very end)

Everything is round: pressed by the villains trying to stop them, the players did something nobody was ever suppossed to do, then tried to change their own past; but with that they ensured that everything would just happen the same way...

But then I run out of ideas...

Because what could be so important that the future versions PC's try everything just to stop themselves? What is that they want to stop from happening? What did the players discover that noone should know? How could the villains travel back in time? Why couldn't they just tell everything to their past selves? Why did they stay in the background the whole time, and let their lackeys do the dirty work? What is the function of these lackeys? And what nice twists could I add to the plot (I just loooove twists), without giving away the main plotline? (with only one big twist at the end the campaign would grow quite boring)

Next session I am planning the first encounter that will ultimately seal their fates, so I am quite in need for some ideas and suggestions now...

 

[Angelsboi]

Lets see if i can help ...

What could be so important that the future versions PC's try everything just to stop themselves?

Hrm. maybe with the advent of Deities and Demigods or the Epic Level Rules, the PCs become demigods for some cause of a bigger god who is dying. The current PCs dont know and the Future PCs nearly destroyed Sigil when they convereted (much like Vecna did) and the Lady of Pain was pissed.

What is that they want to stop from happening?
Themselves from accepting this quest of becoming Demigods.

What did the players discover that noone should know?
A god is dying and needs replacements b/c another god (an evil god) is wanting the dying gods' portfolio.

How could the villains travel back in time?
Wish, Limited wish, create a spell

Why couldn't they just tell everything to their past selves?
Maybe to curse them for their asscencon, the Lady of Pain forced them to speak only in questions or maybe riddles.

Why did they stay in the background the whole time, and let their lackeys do the dirty work?
They cant interfere with mortal lives but they found a loophole where they can interfer with their own lives.

What is the function of these lackeys?
Make it surpriseing. Allow the PCs to get hirelings and lackys and then have the lackies coming after them be older versions of their lackies. Make it forboding; say its 5 lackies. Only have 3 show up. Leaves the PCs wondering what happened to the other 2.

And what nice twists could I add to the plot (I just loooove twists), without giving away the main plotline? (with only one big twist at the end the campaign would grow quite boring)

The lackies, have the lady of pains minions (i cant remember them) spying on the PCs, have various factions petition the PCs for requests that seem 'impossible' or 'godly'

Hope this helps

 

[BluWolf]

OK, quick thoughts...

1) The most obvious answer to why are their future selves trying to stop them is that in the past/near future, the party attempts a noble quest that ends up sending the planes/sigil/whatever into eternal darkness/evil tyranny. They were setup by another baddie in the current/near future timeline.

There was a movie out in the late 80's that dealt with this sort of story through dreams not combat but the main elemtns are the same. Alice Cooper did a cameo role. I don't recall the name.

2) The reason the party doesn't encounter their future selves right away is because they cannot travel back right away. For what ever reason their method of time travel lets them send commands back in time but not themselves.

So they start the ball rolling by dominating a few NPCs in the past/present who go about gathering more minions AND more importantly creating clones of the current party.

3) Why wouldn't they communicate directly. The device/item they are using in the future doesn't let them communicate with themselves directly. All messages sent back to themselves arrive back at the original sender???

Maybe you should try and delvier a message? weakly and vague as to be easily distorted. This could in fact be the very thing that gets the current party on the quest to release the future doom!!

After that their future selves attempt to stop the party instead.

Plot twists. Drop a few seeds by turning current friednly NPCs into possible advisaries. "You know I saw Bob the armorer the other day and he was really pleasant. Today he started yelling at me with this blank stare screaming YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS!!!!!!!!! What gives?"

4) The message back in time actaully reveals the location of an ancient god long imprisoned from the creation of space time. He is a destrcutor and will bring about he end of creation. because the message is so distorted the party should be lead to belave the message is menat ofr them to go and destroy this item/place that is actually holding this evil in check.

Just some random thoughts. Nice concept...

 

[BluWolf]

By the way, the movie was "Prince of Darkness"-1987 by John Carpenter.

Get it. I think you will get a good grasp of what you could do with this concept.

 

[Storminator]

Throw weird stuff at your players, then LISTEN to them when they start trying to figure things out. Then use their ideas against them. After all, you want the villains to be thinking like the players, right?

As for the lackeys, imagine that the future PCs connection to the past is weak. They can't go back more than a day or two themselves, before that they can only send lackeys. The further back they send lackeys, the weaker the lackeys have to be. Gives you the natural progression of enemies.

Oooh! Idea! Kill your PCs! No really, I mean it! Think up some good reason that the future PCs need themselves dead. Then let the PCs in on the story as they die. Give them secondary characters so they can keep playing, but now they're helping you work toward your ultimate story goal (your players will slowly shift over to playing themselves as the villains! weird!). OK, needs work, but I think it's cool.

PS

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

I must say that it sounds pretty cool. as for suggestions as to what the pc did...what if the pc's needed some magic item to defeat some foe or complete some puzzel or something and they went overboard and and got some sort of uber item. to get it though they undid magical protections that had been inplace. maybe someone else had already used the item to lock away some powerful demon. the pc get the item thus freeing him from his long inprisionment and his first order of business is to wreak ahvoc on the prime (i really like the legions of hell supplement I would buy it and use it). He gates in a bunch of his boys and basically make hell on earth. The future pc want to undo what they have done and see the only way of doing that is to undo what they themselfs have done.

 

[Carnifex]

Okay, here's an idea...

In the future, the really powerful versions of the PC's discover the 'Big Dark' - some ultimate truth about the universe, you know, the one that all the factions are always trying to find out.

Well, lets say the PC's do find it. They discover the Truth, some big thing about the creation of the multiverse. Let's say they discover the foundation stone of the planes at the centre of the Outlands, under the spire, proof of some outside entity - the one the Athar are trying to find, 'beyond the veil'.

The catch is, discovery of the beginning is leading to the end.

Something has happened - you could come up with details - that means that now the multiverse is disintegrating, having lost its integrity. Lets say that by removing the foundation stone of it all, it begins the process of the triumph of Entropy - sure, the Doomguard are happy, but no one else is, as the edges of planes begin to disintegrate and crumble, and energy is released into the swirling vortex at the centre of the Outlands.

The PC's realise they've screwed up big time

Now, here are a few ways you could build on this:

1) Entropy is sucking vast amounts of energy from the planes into the big vortex at the centre, a sort of 'black hole' drawing in planar energies. Bad, obviously, but the cunning PC's tap into the planar energies being drawn up like a power source. As hte planes are slowly rendered down into pure energy, the PC's utilise this flow of energy as power for their chronomancy - such powerful magci being beyond even wishes and miracles, but with this kind of power flying around its possible to perform it. At first they're unskilled at it, unwilling to send themselves back in time lest their magic screw up but instead sending specially created servants - the Keepers - back, in an attempt to stop themselves removing the foundation stone. As later on in the campaign they gain mastery of the chronomancy, even as the final death rattle of the planes begins, they send themselves back in time in their final, desperate bid.

2) As above, but there could be a band of time-travellers, not just the PC's but all the people who have ever pulled the plug on the universe and discovered the possibilities of chronomancy. They've formed a sort of Men In Black organisation, using Keepers as Agents, and their purpose is time-travel with the intent to prevent disaster every time during history that someone screws up and the world's going to end, altering the time-line so existence... keeps on existing. The future version of the PC's joins them, and since they, after all, know themselves best, they are assigned by the Organisation to stop themselves.

Just a few ideas...

 

[Arken]

Carnifex's idea is really good. I was going to suggest something similar about the big 'dark' but i didn't have the idea for the organisation there to stop it. That's really good. Also then they all have to be mortals because the deities are made up of the belief that has collapsed.

you could have a renegade member of the 'men in black' organisation that has been driven mad by living forever at the end of time/ in a timeless state. he/she envies all who have an end to existence as it has been denied for him/her. They therefore believe that they can 'save' everyone by allowing existence to end and that then even they will get 'release'. Because all members of the organisation are going to be epic this is a powerful entity, they are therefore working through time to all their power against the rest of the organisation, they have chosen the timeline where the heroes cause destruction as the one to work on and encourages them (subtly) toward the 'dark'.
if i were to do this i would make it the founding member of the organisation (most powerful). You then have a twist and a way to encourage the PCs against their future selves. Then the person who they think is their ally (and to all respects is, and doesn't even have to be evil) is working toward something the PCs would hate and causing them conflict with thier future selves.

Great idea Xar and thankyou carnifex for expanding on it

 

[SonOfLilith]

What a cool quest! I don't have any advice, but what a very very cool concept...hope you don't mind that I steal it.

 

[Xar]

Ooh, thats really nice Carnifex! I really like the idea about finding out the ultimate Thruth. Problem is, there is no ultimate Thruth (at least, I don't know any), and even if there is I don't want to give it away for some punny mortals... So I think I stay with the foundation stone idea. I also loooved the idea that in the beginning the NPC's won't send themselves back in time, and use Sending and Dream like spells first. I can come up with some really nice things to freak them out... think about a friendly old lady selling herbs at the market, chatting with one of the PC's... then her face suddenly twists and changes, her eyes flare up and says in a raspy voice: "You cannot stop it... it is comming!". Weird dreams are also good...

And the most evil thing it is that the NPC's know what is going to happen to the PC's (after all, it is their past) and can always hit them on the spot where it hurts them the most... with their almost godlike time-travel powers they can be responsible for everything the PC's encounter... (or did encounter long time ago)
For example there is this Egyptian fellow that accidentally wound up in the planes, and now wants to return to his beloved wife and children... But when he finds his way back to his world he finds them all murdered. Step by step he finds out that the murderers were of the same organisation who have harassed them earlier, but only at the very end does he realize that the murderer was actually his own future self... he had to slay his own family just to stop he main event from happening...

Or there is this tiefling who wants to find out the identity of his father (kinda Star Wars like). Wouldn't it be nice to let him find out that it was his own future self ?

Of course, whatever 'the villains' do, it seems to be their fate to end up with the event they tried to stop at any costs...

Ah well, thx for all the ideas guys and keep 'em comming!