Greatest American? (All Over on Page Eight)

[beepeearr]

Greatest American uhh.

So do you pick the person who has had the biggest impact on American History, or do you pick someone who best exemplifies the qualities of America. There is alot of Historic and Iconic americans on that list, some I like more than others. History is written by the winners, not the losers, thats why you would never see sitting bull or Robert E Lee on the list. Almost all politicians have a dark side, especially presidents, but thats okay, because the world isn't always a friendly place.

For Instance JFK got us into vietnam, but Nixon gets the blame, hell Johnson inherited the mess from JFK, along with a mourning nation in the middle of the civil rights movement. The Country was being ripped apart from the inside, and he did a good job, but will forever be overshadowed by JFK. Vietnam and the American press completely handicapp how America fights its wars now, and not in a good way. And why isn't MLK Jr not being mentioned more.

A prime examples of History being written by the winners are both the Civil and Spanish American wars. Both are wars that were fought for dubious reasons, but both changed the face of America. The South decided to succeed from the union when they were denied the right to industialize the south. This would have killed the economies of the North who relied on the raw materials the south created (ie cotton). The war didn't become about ending slavery until much later in the war, and was done so only to drive away the South's European allies. If the war was really about the equal treatment of all men, then we wouldn't have had to have the civil rights movement of the 1960's, because it would have already been taken care of in the years following the war. I don't know if I would call lincoln a Great American, but I will say that he was a Smart American, because the south would have problably won if not for that PR stunt, and who knows how long slavery would continue. As far as the Spanish American War since when has one detroyed warship justified the conquering of Half a continent. It was all about the "Gold in them thar hills".
And did you ever notice that we attempted to invade Canada whenever we had an excuse too (both during the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812), hell we even had battleships on the great lakes.

America isn't "Great" because of any one American, America is great because of the millions of people whose names we will never collectively know who have fought for this country, for those who have spent there lives slaving away in factories, for those who demanded equal rights, and for those who believe in the American Dream, that anybody can prosper (and yes that would even include Oprah Winfrey).

 

[beepeearr]

Their incompetence, like Burnside, and then there’s doing what needs to be done…

Theirs also doing what needs to be done, and then theres going too far. Grant was ruthless in his march across the south, especially when his actions were primarly conducted against civilians, not civilians harboring military troops, just civilians. His actions led to similiar tactics being used against the American Indians of the great plains. If we can't find or fight thier army we'll kill their families and destroy thier property. These are not things that need to be done, these are barbaric cowardly acts.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

And why isn't MLK Jr not being mentioned more.

Tied for third on this list.

I don't know if I would call lincoln a Great American, but I will say that he was a Smart American, because the south would have problably won if not for that PR stunt, and who knows how long slavery would continue.

Actually the south had very little chance of winning the war, even with allies, the money, the population, the industry, was all in the north. Of course amazing things can sometimes be done but Lee and the South lost that Jackson died.

As for it being a PR stunt, not hardly, not even close. It was very much a surprise when Lincoln started talking like that cause a lot of the population in the north wasn’t ready for it to be the end of slavery. Of course Lincoln did what few did, he didn’t back down and it cost him his life.

And did you ever notice that we attempted to invade Canada whenever we had an excuse too (both during the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812), hell we even had battleships on the great lakes.

Ahhh one second:

A land of vast distances and rich natural resources, Canada became a self-governing dominion in 1867 while retaining ties to the British crown.

Hey what do you know... That's part of Britain and that was even who we were fighting.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Grant was ruthless in his march across the south, especially when his actions were primarly conducted against civilians, not civilians harboring military troops, just civilians.

Wrong General... It was Sherman who did the above.

 

[beepeearr]

I say PR stunt because it did what it was meant to do, It turned the Souths european allies against them. This cost them dearly since all Industry was in the North, and the were counting on European aid too offset their lack of industry. By the way I didn't say it wasn't brave, I only said he did it for a reason that had very little to do with the actual welfare of southern slaves.

I think you missed my point about Canada. We did try to invade Canada, since the Canadians wanted no part of our revolution. The intent at least during 1812 was to completely oust britain from the continent, regardless of what the people occuping the land wanted. Both colonies were paying the same taxes, but the American colonies did have more cities so therefor paid more taxes overall, and since most of these taxes were to pay for the french-indian war, which was primarily fought in the border regions (especially Canada) the average American colonists could care less, but the Canadian colonists were more than happy to have the british army nearby. I'm not trying to say it was wrong, just merely trying to point out the differences in perspective.

President Lincoln on advice from Grant approved the idea. "I can make Georgia howl!" Sherman boasts.

Sorry, yes it was Sherman who did the actual destruction, and I should have stated as much, but Grant approved it as the Commander of all Union forces. I tend to put the emphasis on him because he should have known better, and he had the power to stop sherman but didn't.

 

[Dinkeldog]

As far as the Spanish American War since when has one detroyed warship justified the conquering of Half a continent. It was all about the "Gold in them thar hills".
And did you ever notice that we attempted to invade Canada whenever we had an excuse too (both during the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812), hell we even had battleships on the great lakes.

The Spanish American War was fought in 1898, gold was found in California in 1848. The Spanish American War was fought so that William Randolph Hearst could sell newspapers.

The War with Mexico closer fits your description, but that was more about the ideology of Manifest Destiny than about gold, as it was fought in 1846, two years before gold was discovered. It is more likely that the annexation of Texas was the cause of the War with Mexico, with Mexico's ceding of New Mexico, Arizona, and California happy byproducts of that war.

I think it would be interesting to get a Canadian perspective on the causes of the War of 1812. Official Marine Corps Doctrine is that the war was really the end of the Revolutionary War--establishing beyond a doubt that we were beyond British dreams of control.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Lincoln shouldn't be on this list for the war crimes he condoned by his generals against the Confederacy.

 

[Mark Chance]

The South decided to succeed from the union when they were denied the right to industialize the south. This would have killed the economies of the North who relied on the raw materials the south created (ie cotton). The war didn't become about ending slavery until much later in the war, and was done so only to drive away the South's European allies.

The war didn't become about slavery for the Union until the Emancipation Proclamation. For the Confederacy, the war was primarily about slavery from day one. Read every single order of secession starting with South Carolina complaining about the election of an "abolitionist president." Slavery is the main issue in every single one of them.

 

[Storm Raven]

Theirs also doing what needs to be done, and then theres going too far. Grant was ruthless in his march across the south, especially when his actions were primarly conducted against civilians, not civilians harboring military troops, just civilians. His actions led to similiar tactics being used against the American Indians of the great plains. If we can't find or fight thier army we'll kill their families and destroy thier property. These are not things that need to be done, these are barbaric cowardly acts.

The property was being used to provide for the war - mostly it was being used to feed the Confederate army, and move troops by the (handful) of railways. Much of the "property" taken from the Southerners were slaves, who were freed. Sherman spent much of his campaign in Georgia actually fighting: he was opposed by Johnston, and later Hood.

Striking at an enemy's source of supply isn't "going to far". Freeing enslaved humans he calls "property" isn't "going too far".

 

[Hand of Evil]

Let's not make this political, I also have a lot of issues with some of the people on the list but...