Greatest American? (All Over on Page Eight)

[Gentlegamer]

I went with Jefferson myself.

George Washington was the creator of the US from a military perspective, securing soveriegnty. Thomas Jefferson was the creator of the US from a civil perspective, ensuring a Republic and laying the foundation for American culture and civilization. Washington won the War, Jefferson won the Peace.

Archaeologist, architect, diplomat, scholar, theologian, vintner, farmer, philosopher, statesman. Author of the Declaration of Independence, founder of the University of Virginia, a founder of the Abolitionist movement in the United States, he was truly a man without equal.

Washington was not a creator of the US from a military perspective. He turned down doing such a thing at Newburgh (look up the Newburgh Conspiracy). For the American Revolution and the First War of American Independence, Washington was the indespensible man.

That said, the American Revolution was not complete until 1801 when Jefferson and the Republicans* took office, having defeated the Federalists in the 1800 election, and initiating the first bloodless regime change in history.

*no relation to modern Republican party . . . these Republicans eventually became the Democrat Party, which also has no relation to the modern Democrat party, though it is technically the origin of the modern party

 

[Gentlegamer]

Main author of the words, not the ideas. He was picked for his eloquence to put down the ideas of the committee. And he managed to rip-off John Locke. But if you're going to steal ideas, he's a good one to do it from.

Jefferson did not "rip off" John Locke. The political philosophy of constitutionalism was in place in American before Locke's Second Treatise. Locke's Second Treatise is an example of American Constitutional Political Philosophy, rather than the other way around. It is more accurate to say that Locke and Jefferson pulled from a common political philosophy heritage (just like Tolkien didn't "rip off" Wagner, just used the same sources).

 

[Captain Tagon]

Jefferson did not "rip off" John Locke. The political philosophy of constitutionalism was in place in American before Locke's Second Treatise. Locke's Second Treatise is an example of American Constitutional Political Philosophy, rather than the other way around. It is more accurate to say that Locke and Jefferson pulled from a common political philosophy heritage (just like Tolkien didn't "rip off" Wagner, just used the same sources).

Wording. Life, liberty, property versus life, liberty, and the extremely vague "pursuit of happiness".

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Wording. Life, liberty, property versus life, liberty, and the extremely vague "pursuit of happiness".

Yet if the words work, at least I think we are all in agreement that they do, isn't the above just splitting hairs?

It seems so in my opinion.

 

[Captain Tagon]

Yet if the words work, at least I think we are all in agreement that they do, isn't the above just splitting hairs?

It seems so in my opinion.

I just think Jefferson gets too much credit.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

See, based on my own looking into history, neither Jefferson or FDR should be remembered as great Presidents... Jefferson on the other hand managed to weaken the American military to the point that the British conquered Washington during the War of 1812.

Now, that is a very different version of the events of the War of 1812 than I am familiar with, and I just spent some time researching this last year in the wake of the most grossly innacurate History Channel "documentary" I've ever seen. We Americans, after all, were the aggressors in that conflict, and the sacking of Washington was, arguably, the result of a weakened defense, not a weakened military. After all, our military was apparently considered fit to be invading another Canada at the time.

EDITED for clarification and decrease of overall uppity-ness on my part

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

I just think Jefferson gets too much credit.

Looking at the voting I concur but its not because he had help writing an important document I just think others did more for this country than him.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Canis, your thought on that quote is lost... I can't figure it your talking about FDR or the war of 1812. (You might want to edit that quote some.)

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Canis, your thought on that quote is lost... I can't figure it your talking about FDR or the war of 1812. (You might want to edit that quote some.)

Well...I don't think Washington was sacked during WWII, so its probably not about FDR. But then again...one never knows.

 

[Storm Raven]

Now, that is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened at that time. We Americans, after all, were the aggressors in that conflict, and the sacking of Washington was, arguably, the result of a weakened defense, not a weakened military. After all, our military was apparently considered fit to be invading another country at the time.

A belief that a military should be doing something, and the realityof the nature of that military may be very different things. The U.S. military was in shambles by 1812, although it was not all Jefferson's doing. That stemmed from a pervasive political culture that saw citizen militias and amatuer officers as the essential core of a nation's military, coupled with a disdain for professional military study and experience. Jefferson was a symptom of that culture, not a cause.