Greyhawk as the "Official" Setting

[Parmandur]

Hey, a bit of a historical enquiry here: what was the scoop with Greyhawk being the "official" setting in the 3E era? That is when I started playing, and we used the gods in the book and such, but we were really doing a "Points of Light" make it up as we go setting, so I didn't ever really experience Greyhawk proper.

It doesn't seem that product-wise the setting was actually supported: does anyone have a line on to why this was, was there some sort of drama within WOTC on the topic? Any historical insight appreciated!

 

[delericho]

Hey, a bit of a historical enquiry here: what was the scoop with Greyhawk being the "official" setting in the 3E era?

It was less 'official' so much as 'default', in that the names of the gods, and also the names referenced in some of the spells (Bibgy, Otiluke...) were taken from Greyhawk lore. (Of course, the spells had already long-transcended the setting.)

It doesn't seem that product-wise the setting was actually supported: does anyone have a line on to why this was, was there some sort of drama within WOTC on the topic?

There were two books for Greyhawk: the "D&D Gazeteer" and the "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer", where the former was a very thin book intended to get people started, while the latter was a much more in-depth treatment. Greyhawk was also the setting of the Living Greyhawk campaign, of course.

I don't think this was really a case of drama within WotC, though. Rather, it was part of an over-arching strategy: Greyhawk for the default "do what you want with it" style, and FR for those who wanted an in-depth setting (with the books sold at a premium). Eberron came later, so wasn't part of the same strategy.

 

[Willie the Duck]

My understanding is that one of the 3e designers was a fan, but WotC knew that Forgotten Realms was the moneymaker. Therefore, they made GH the default, so that everything FR they could sell to gamers as a separate supplement.

 

[Parmandur]

It was less 'official' so much as 'default', in that the names of the gods, and also the names referenced in some of the spells (Bibgy, Otiluke...) were taken from Greyhawk lore. (Of course, the spells had already long-transcended the setting.)







There were two books for Greyhawk: the "D&D Gazeteer" and the "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer", where the former was a very thin book intended to get people started, while the latter was a much more in-depth treatment. Greyhawk was also the setting of the Living Greyhawk campaign, of course.



I don't think this was really a case of drama within WotC, though. Rather, it was part of an over-arching strategy: Greyhawk for the default "do what you want with it" style, and FR for those who wanted an in-depth setting (with the books sold at a premium). Eberron came later, so wasn't part of the same strategy.

Just seems so weird they would publish just the two books and then effectively abandon the setting?

 

[GreenTengu]

To be fair, GreyHawk has always been the default D&D setting. Pretty much every other setting starts with the concept of "GreyHawk, BUT...."

Between what peoples inhabit the lands, which creatures and monsters you are likely to run into, how magic works and what spell effects are common and which are uncommon and what those spells are called... it is all GreyHawk by default. There is no particular reason for Elves to use long swords or not have to sleep nor why the evil ones are the ones that live underground, no particular reason Dwarves have to be classified as "good" and particularly at odds with Orcs and Goblins, why Gnomes have to specialize in Illusions, no reason "Halflings" have to be a thing or be divided between "Hairfoot" and "Tallfellow"...

All of these things are born within the GreyHawk setting in order to differentiate it from any other fantasy world that ever existed prior. the fact that other settings adopted these things either because they spread there or because they weren't willing to reinvent the wheel and rewrite most of the core rulebook in order to create their own unique vision is inconsequential.

D&D is still fundamentally GreyHawk by default at the core. If you play the way the core rulebooks instruct with Elves, Dwarfs, Halflings and maybe Half-Orcs or Gnomes as your human-like allied peoples with Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard that use Vancian magic as your default party fighting little yellow/gray-skinned goblins and lizard/dog Kobolds as the profession "adventurer", you are playing some version of GreyHawk.

 

[pemerton]

Just seems so weird they would publish just the two books and then effectively abandon the setting?

Because its popularity peaked some time in the 80s, I think. There was a bit of a reboot in the earlier years of 2nd ed AD&D, then another mostly unsuccessful reboot in the latter years of 2nd ed.

During the 3E era, one overtly GH product was Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk.

 

[Parmandur]

Because its popularity peaked some time in the 80s, I think. There was a bit of a reboot in the earlier years of 2nd ed AD&D, then another mostly unsuccessful reboot in the latter years of 2nd ed.



During the 3E era, one overtly GH product was Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk.

But if it was not popular, and they did not plan to change that by publishing books, why declare it to be the default? Seems so odd...

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

While I can't quite state this as undeniable fact, it is my impression that GH was sidelined as a setting because two years before work even began on 2E Gygax had been kicked to the curb at TSR and was only a "creative contributor". He had no ability to champion his own setting to be promoted within the game and TSR certainly had every corporate interest to minimize their dealings with Gygax from that point on. FR became the setting of choice for 2E because there were no issues to speak of between TSR and Ed Greenwood. Greyhawk was pretty much left to rot. When WotC bought up the bankrupt wreckage of TSR they began work on 3E and it seems they were interested in having at least an amicable relationship with Gygax. Pretty much as just a nod to his contributions in creating the game they made Greyhawk the "default" setting. As noted that pretty much just meant that deities and some spell names and items were products that came out of the Greyhawk setting. But they made no real efforts to promote it as a setting over FR (the IP rights for which at some point was bought out entirely from Greenwood.) One of the things noted by Ryan Dancey in analyzing TSR's downfall for WotC was that pushing multiple settings at once, and re-publishing them frequently only led to lowered sales of any particular setting. Given the costs involved it made sense to restrict the number of settings and to be VERY careful that releasing a new setting (or revising/re-releasing an older one) would not cut into sales of the existing settings.

So - Gygax gets a tip-o-the-hat in the PH, because they're cool guys and want to be nice to him - but they're businessmen too, and the setting they promote for independent sale (rather than give any part of it away with the core rulebooks) is the one THEY completely OWN without question. The parts of GH that DID appear in the PH were, I'm fairly sure, elements that they did not actually have to pay much for (if anything) having been under TSR's control when they bought it.

 

[pemerton]

But if it was not popular, and they did not plan to change that by publishing books, why declare it to be the default? Seems so odd...

I think this has been covered upthread: it was "default" only in the sense that it provided names for gods. The alternative set of "default" names would have been FR gods, but they wanted to save those for other products for which there was a significant market.

 

[pemerton]

Gygax gets a tip-o-the-hat in the PH, because they're cool guys and want to be nice to him - but they're businessmen too, and the setting they promote for independent sale (rather than give any part of it away with the core rulebooks) is the one THEY completely OWN without question. The parts of GH that DID appear in the PH were, I'm fairly sure, elements that they did not actually have to pay much for (if anything) having been under TSR's control when they bought it.

WotC owns the GH setting just as much as they own the FR setting. (Though as part of the settlement between TSR and Gygax, I believe Gygax enjoyed some sort of licence to produce Gord books set in GH - someone else can probably provide more details on this.)

WotC did not have to pay Gygax any royalties to use the GH gods in their PHB.

The simple fact is that GH is not all that popular in the contemporary D&D market, and hasn't been for over 20 years.