Grim Tales.......A few concerns

[Ro3]

I've just purchesed a copy of Grim Tales from my FLGS(largely based on the excellent reviews on this site and the largely positive attitude to it on the boards). First things first; it's absolutley wonderful. Elegant, consistant, compatible and logical. However, I do have two questions.

1. Is it me or does the GT version of Improved Critical favor axes, picks and scythes over swords, rapiers and such? The axe would end up with a crit range of 19-20/x3(twice as much damage again twice in every 20 rolls), but the longsword would only get 18-20/x2(once as much damage again thrice every 20 rolls).

2. Would there be any negative consequences if only one magic type was allowed into the campaign? If, for example, only arcane adepts existed, would this render the Dedicated and Charismatic Hero classes underpowered?

 

[BryonD]

I've just purchesed a copy of Grim Tales from my FLGS(largely based on the excellent reviews on this site and the largely positive attitude to it on the boards). First things first; it's absolutley wonderful. Elegant, consistant, compatible and logical. However, I do have two questions.

1. Is it me or does the GT version of Improved Critical favor axes, picks and scythes over swords, rapiers and such? The axe would end up with a crit range of 19-20/x3(twice as much damage again twice in every 20 rolls), but the longsword would only get 18-20/x2(once as much damage again thrice every 20 rolls).

You are correct, but I do not think it is a big issue. Another way of looking at it is: the weapons are balanced as is and this feat increase the frequency of threats by 5% for all weapons, thus it is also balanced.

Yet another way of looking at is that X3 and X4 weapons are the BIG CRIT weapons, so if crits are what you are after, you should use those weapons and this encourages that.

Yet again another way of looking at it is that the feat does the same for "20" threat weapons as it already did and is only toned down for weapons with larger ranges. You can not create a "broken" situation by reducing the power of something. If a sword user feels this feat is no longer worth it, just don't take it. There are gracious plenty other good feats to take.

I think the main point is that the Grim Tales feel does not involve critical threats on a 12+ and other such scenarios as are easy to achieve in D&D (where such things ARE good, btw). So if you ignore that rule and use the D&D version, no big deal.

2. Would there be any negative consequences if only one magic type was allowed into the campaign? If, for example, only arcane adepts existed, would this render the Dedicated and Charismatic Hero classes underpowered?

I strongly think that there would be no negative consequence to this at all. The spell-caster talent paths are simply one option available to the various classes. The other options are no less potent.

 

[Zoatebix]

Wow - you beat me to it, ByronD. My sentiments exactly.

 

[Ro3]

You are correct, but I do not think it is a big issue. Another way of looking at it is: the weapons are balanced as is and this feat increase the frequency of threats by 5% for all weapons, thus it is also balanced.

But surely threats mean more for the axe and pick?

Yet another way of looking at is that X3 and X4 weapons are the BIG CRIT weapons, so if crits are what you are after, you should use those weapons and this encourages that.

I suppose, but isn't Grim Tales about allowing DM's to custom-tailor the rules to favor what they like? It's just a minor concern, anyway.

Yet again another way of looking at it is that the feat does the same for "20" threat weapons as it already did and is only toned down for weapons with larger ranges. You can not create a "broken" situation by reducing the power of something. If a sword user feels this feat is no longer worth it, just don't take it. There are gracious plenty other good feats to take.

Fair point. After all, Power Attack isn't a good choice for light weapons.

I think the main point is that the Grim Tales feel does not involve critical threats on a 12+ and other such scenarios as are easy to achieve in D&D (where such things ARE good, btw). So if you ignore that rule and use the D&D version, no big deal.

I don't believe that 12-20 is possible in 3.5, what with keen and Improved Crit not stacking. However, so few GT heros would see a keen rapier that it's rather moot anyway. 15-20/x2 is numerically equivilent to 19-20/x3 on average. Except, of course, that the rapier user spends thrice the action points. Actually, Grim Tales is fairly harse on the large critical ranges come to think of it.

I strongly think that there would be no negative consequence to this at all. The spell-caster talent paths are simply one option available to the various classes. The other options are no less potent.

Good to hear. I figured it that way, just wanted to check. One of the things that's alway that irritated me about D&D was the segregation of magic. I'd prefer just magic, with no distinction between arcane and divine magic(when I start my first GT game, I'd probably make it godless).

 

[BryonD]

But surely threats mean more for the axe and pick?

Mathematically, yes. But that gets back to the logic of: axes are not any better now, this feat is just a little less strong with swords. I don't see that as a problem.

I suppose, but isn't Grim Tales about allowing DM's to custom-tailor the rules to favor what they like? It's just a minor concern, anyway.

Yes and No

Yes: This rule is a new optional way of handling it. Before you had the D&D way, now you have the D&D way and the GT way. Pick the one that custom-tailors the way you like it.

No: There is clearly a GRIM mindset to Grim Tales. Yes, Wulf is giving you options, but he is doing more than that. He is also saying "Hey dude, if you want a a skin of your teeth and there-but-by-the-grace-of-god campaign then THIS option is the better one."

If you don't agree then you are wrong, er, ummm, ah I mean, then do what you prefer, it's your campaign after all.

I don't believe that 12-20 is possible in 3.5, what with keen and Improved Crit not stacking. However, so few GT heros would see a keen rapier that it's rather moot anyway. 15-20/x2 is numerically equivilent to 19-20/x3 on average. Except, of course, that the rapier user spends thrice the action points. Actually, Grim Tales is fairly harse on the large critical ranges come to think of it.

The bottom line is that GT has lower threat ranges than D&D.
And the action points thing is an important part of that. I started to go there before, but didn't want to add to my already wordy post.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

2. Would there be any negative consequences if only one magic type was allowed into the campaign? If, for example, only arcane adepts existed, would this render the Dedicated and Charismatic Hero classes underpowered?

Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic heroes have access to the Magical Adept talent equally and all can choose whether they want to be arcane, divine, or wild irrespective of their class.

That is to say, there's nothing stopping a Dedicated hero from being an arcane adept, casting spells based on his Intelligence.

He'll be underpowered only to the extent that his Intelligence might not be his highest stat.

Wulf

 

[GlassJaw]

I just GT too - sweet!! IMO, this is what an "alternate" PHB should be. It's really nice to have one source to run a low-magic campaign.

I had a couple of questions too actually:

Are there any sources for additional Talent trees, or at least ones that you would recommend?

How would you go about creating wilderness-type characters? I don't want to use any of the PHB classes but I'm not exactly sure how to emulate abilities like woodland stride, swift tracker, or camouflage.

Also, this isn't really a GT-specific question, but do you have any ideas as to why they (d20 Modern developers) chose to not have any classes with a d12 HD?

 

[Ryltar]

2. Would there be any negative consequences if only one magic type was allowed into the campaign? If, for example, only arcane adepts existed, would this render the Dedicated and Charismatic Hero classes underpowered?

This is exactly what I'm doing right now for a homebrew world and campaign. Arcane adepts only. I will run a few tests, but I don't believe that Dedicated and Charismatic will be (severely) hampered - if they turn out to be, then I will fix that with a few additional talents. I am also considering to use the XPH wilder in place of the charismatic adept, but have yet to come up with a "limitation" system like spell burn.

That being said, Wulf, I'd have to second GlassJaws question - any talent sources you would recommend, or strongly advise to refrain from using them?

 

[GlassJaw]

This is exactly what I'm doing right now for a homebrew world and campaign. Arcane adepts only

Same here. No deities in my world so no divine magic. Most of the magic has been "drained" as well so no sorcs, at least at first. You have to learn whatever magic you want to use.

I would like to add some kind of spirit/nature/elemental/druidic magic but I'm not exactly sure how to implement that yet.

 

[BryonD]

I would like to add some kind of spirit/nature/elemental/druidic magic but I'm not exactly sure how to implement that yet.

A) Put the divine adept back in
B) Change its name
C) Be selective with the spell list