[GRIM TALES] armor restricting defense bonus?

[GlassJaw]

In the campaign I'm working on now, I want armor to present the players with a choice. I also want armorless PC's to be viable as well, a la Conan.

Essentially, I want grant those that wear armor another kind of bonus but if they choose to wear armor, their defense bonus will be limited.

I was originally thinking about using the Fewer Dead Heroes variant but I don't want every other PC or creature getting knocked out. I kind of like the idea of having armor add to the massive damage save (armor bonus + Con score). It makes sense I suppose - the armor helps you resist a potentially life-threatening blow.

But if armor completely stacks with the defense bonus, there isn't really any downside to wearing any. I was thinking of limiting the max defense to the max Dex mod of the armor worn. So basically, Max Dex Bonus becomes Max Dex and Defense bonus.

Thoughts?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

But if armor completely stacks with the defense bonus, there isn't really any downside to wearing any. I was thinking of limiting the max defense to the max Dex mod of the armor worn. So basically, Max Dex Bonus becomes Max Dex and Defense bonus.

Thoughts?

Depends on the power scale of the enemies in the campaign.

The Defense bonus essentially substitutes for the magical bonus most players have access to in normal magic games. Meaning-- no, you're not finding +2 armor and shield, but, hey, you have a +4 Defense bonus. So it washes out.

Now, if the power of the enemies isn't scaling up-- there are no Grond Threethumbs with a +22 attack bonus to worry about-- then the need to compensate for the lack of magic isn't there. In such a campaign, you could absolutely limit the Defense bonus to the max. Dex bonus of the armor, and it would add great flavor.

Basically just make sure that the offense of the opposition doesn't outstrip the defense of the PCs.


Wulf

 

[GlassJaw]

Now what about taking it one step further and having armor provide DR (like Star Wars and Conan)? In this case, armor doesn't add to AC at all. In both cases, however, wearing armor does not restrict the defense bonus and only limits the wearer's Dex bonus as normal.

I'm just trying to think of some options to illustrate a "low-armor" setting, or at least one in which heavy metal armors are rare if virtually non-existant.

 

[Fenris]

Now what about taking it one step further and having armor provide DR (like Star Wars and Conan)? In this case, armor doesn't add to AC at all. In both cases, however, wearing armor does not restrict the defense bonus and only limits the wearer's Dex bonus as normal.

I'm just trying to think of some options to illustrate a "low-armor" setting, or at least one in which heavy metal armors are rare if virtually non-existant.

That will only encourage heavy armor use. You have to restrict the defense bonus to max dex to discourage heavy armor. I think the Fewer Dead Heroes (or Armor as DR) coupled with Defense limited to Max dex is a good combo. Fast heroes will seldom ever wear armor at all. And most other classes will wear medium to light. And you will see armor phase out as you get to higher levels. Heroes may take a few points of defense loss to pick up the protection, but they may lose too much defense at higher levels. And I would say that the DR would encourage more armor and for longer than FDH.

 

[Ravellion]

I am unsure about the FDH variant (I have yet to get my hands on a copy of Grim Tales), but in Unearthed Arcana there is a variant where Armour adds to DR and Defense (basically 50/50). If you then say it doesn't stack, but it doesn't restrict each otehr either, you pretty much will see a few people, who don't worry too much about movement, get some okayish DR, but most will take the 1 or 2 points that respectively leather and Chain Shirt can give them.

Rav

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

And you will see armor phase out as you get to higher levels.

Any system that encourages high level heroes to suddenly give up all armor in favor of defense bonus doesn't pass the test.

Wulf

 

[GlassJaw]

Any system that encourages high level heroes to suddenly give up all armor in favor of defense bonus doesn't pass the test.

Why not? And I don't think restricting the Defense bonus encourages higher-level heroes to wear armor, it merely gives them a choice. If they don't wear armor, they can use their skill to avoid getting hit altogether or they can don armor which may slow them down a bit, but it will absorb some of the damage they receive.

This is also fairly consistent with the stories of Conan. In some situations, he is armorless and blindingly fast. In others, he is in full armor and preparing to go to war.

It also makes armor not a necessity. If defense always stacks with armor, there isn't really any disadvantage to not wearing it. Sure, there is a max Dex rating but that is rarely a limitation.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely like the rules as written, but for a low-armor world, I think there should be more of a "penalty" for wearing it. I thought about making armor DR only but that would require the defense bonus to be higher (as it is in Conan and SW). That's more work than I wanted to do.

 

[Fenris]

OK, let's try to find a compromise between Glassjaw and Wulf.

We don't want to see the wholesale abandonment of armor at high levels.

But we want to discourage the over-reliance on heavy armors.

And we want to have some non-defense benefit to wearing some armor.

Are we agreed?

What about if Defense and Armor didn't stack? Whether as DR or as damage converstion. ie Thta you get you defenseonly if it is above the AC of the armor? Since the armor is stopping damage that hits you there is still an incentive to use it, but most heros will find some compromise between no armor and full plate works best.

So here is where Wulf comes in and simplifies this in one fell swoop.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Why not?

Because it's f'ing ridiculous, that's why. You need to remain thematically consistent.

This is also fairly consistent with the stories of Conan. In some situations, he is armorless and blindingly fast. In others, he is in full armor and preparing to go to war.

Right... but he never reaches the point where he says, "I just realized! I've reached the point where I'm so fast that I no longer need armor! Now I can go to war naked."

Notice this is not the same thing as the fast hero who has always been better without armor. Just don't let the lesser-Defense classes reach a tipping point where suddenly they are 1 point better out of full plate than they were when they were wearing it.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely like the rules as written, but for a low-armor world, I think there should be more of a "penalty" for wearing it. I thought about making armor DR only but that would require the defense bonus to be higher (as it is in Conan and SW). That's more work than I wanted to do.

Let's not overlook the armor penalty to skills, and the effects of fatigue.

Limit yourself to real-world considerations, not, "Hey! My defense bonus just went up a point to +9! So much for full plate!"


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

So here is where Wulf comes in and simplifies this in one fell swoop.

It's been a rough day at work.

Snarkiness is at 100%, brain at about 10%.