[GRIM TALES] armor restricting defense bonus?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't know if this is such a good idea.

Characters are penalized for wearing armor in D20 Modern - they have to spend feats on it. Three feats for full plate! Are things different in Grim Tales?

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I don't know if this is such a good idea.

Characters are penalized for wearing armor in D20 Modern - they have to spend feats on it. Three feats for full plate! Are things different in Grim Tales?

Some heroes (Strong) get all armor feats for free. I don't know if this fits all settings, however, and I have been toying with forcing them to take a feat for Heavy Armor proficiency. In return, I am considering giving them a free skill feats at 1st level, or maybe just a +2 bonus on a skill of their choice.

But, if I were running a staple settings with Grim Tales (Greyhawk or FR), I would probably not change this as Strong heroes essentially represent fighters who have heavy armor proficiency for free.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I use Fewer Dead Heroes and pretty much standard Grim Tales on the armor rules after that.

If you look under the GT rules for Encumbrance, though, and I'm not sure if Wulf remembers this is in there, but your Load penalty applies not just to Skills with Armor Check Penalties ... but to ATTACK ROLLS as well. Which is different from standard D&D. (I just looked it up.)

Now, what this means, is unless you're massively strong you're going to avoid heavy armors at all times because reaching Medium loadout is going to heavily nerf your combat abilities.

That little gem kept all of my PCs away from heavy armors, even though I use FDH. Most people will wear something light ... leather, studded, a chain shirt ... just for an AC bump and mostly for 2-4 points of Damage Conversion (because it keeps you alive!).

My game is also an airship game and I pointed out that Armor Check penalties apply to skills like ... CLIMB ... and JUMP ... and when you're a handful of hundreds of feet in the air, that climb or jump check may be the only thing between them and SPLAT. So that probably adds to it.

I think if you just TELL them that Armor is going to be rare and that Encumbrance affects your BAB you'll find most people will go ahead and design their PCs away from heavy armor without having to impose artificial penalties to it.

And there's always Game World Issues. I mean, if Full Plate isn't AVAILABLE then why even bother nerfing it ... it's already been nerfed by you ruling they're not going to find it hanging on the rack at the corner Ye Olde Armourer Shoppe.

EDIT: And I think it's "real world" issues like encumbrance that keep most people in the "Real World" from running around in full body-armor loadouts. It's a balance between protection and staying mobile. Let them know you're going to keep Encumbrance, that Encumbrance will penalize them on Attack Bonus, that Armor makes them slower and slow people don't get to Cover as quickly as others. A few archers on high ground with cover and a climb-check to get to them will ruin people with Armor Check penalties who have to slog through the firestorm and try to make it up the hill before they can even engage the enemy ... who can run away faster than they can catch up! I do stuff like running enemies to my D&D players all the time. When everybody is in heavy armor and the foe keeps retreating into the (concealment granting) bush ...

--fje

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Some heroes (Strong) get all armor feats for free.

Only if you start with Strong Hero at 1st level.

If you multiclass into Strong, you don't get the armor proficiency feats.

The bonus each class gets at 1st level apply only to 1st character level-- never to multiclassing. What you choose as your 1st level class is pretty important. Strong heroes get armor and all martial weapons, Smart heroes get 3 more core skills, and everyone else falls somewhere in between.


Wulf

 

[GlassJaw]

Great post HeapThaumaturgist. I totally missed that about encumbrance affecting attack rolls. That's big.

I think if you just TELL them that Armor is going to be rare and that Encumbrance affects your BAB you'll find most people will go ahead and design their PCs away from heavy armor without having to impose artificial penalties to it.

And there's always Game World Issues. I mean, if Full Plate isn't AVAILABLE then why even bother nerfing it ... it's already been nerfed by you ruling they're not going to find it hanging on the rack at the corner Ye Olde Armourer Shoppe.

Both great points.

It's a balance between protection and staying mobile. Let them know you're going to keep Encumbrance, that Encumbrance will penalize them on Attack Bonus, that Armor makes them slower and slow people don't get to Cover as quickly as others.

Oh I'm definitely going to require that everyone keeps track of encumbrance.

That little gem kept all of my PCs away from heavy armors, even though I use FDH. Most people will wear something light ... leather, studded, a chain shirt ... just for an AC bump and mostly for 2-4 points of Damage Conversion (because it keeps you alive!).

Quick question: Since you use FDH, have you found that battles end with everyone unconscious? I definitely like the FDH option (and I think it makes sense - battle fatigue, bruising, etc) but I'm just curious as to the outcome of most battles.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I take it you mean "enemies" by "everyone".

On the whole, not too much. If they're fighting people in full plate, chances are most of the damage will be NL and they'll end up with knocked out people instead of dead.

If they fight foes who are wearing lighter armor, then it's quite possible, and usually likely, that they'll be gone in 2-3 hits (as mooks) and the "damage overflow" will actually put them to dying.

So far in my campaign fights they've gone up against some monsters (who don't get FDH from Natural Armor) and some slaver/sailors (not wearing armor) and a few guards (wearing armor). Most of the guards got hit for enough damage that they went out ANYWAY. I've had a few guys left on the battlefield merely knocked out ... but I find that to be more realistic.

People stop fighting because they CAN'T fight anymore, not because they've suddenly dropped over dead. I treat the "Knocked Out" and rendered too injured to fight and 'probably' passed out. As a DM I'm also known for enemies who surrender and make the lives of the PCs more annoying for it. If the spellcaster is out of spells and threatened by 6 guys with sharp metal instruments of death ... well he's probably not going to pull his apple-peeling knife and wade into battle. Unless he's foaming-at-the-mouth insane. Evil != Dumb.

Last combat we ended with one living guard, and a living (but knocked out from NLD) enemy wizard. The PCs decided to truss him up real good and take him back to the ship. He escaped later by feigning more serious injuries and using a spell on a guard, which just made the PCs hate him all the more and swear to dispatch him the next they met. But I know they won't, they hope he'll have some information they can wring out of him. The guard they brought back as a witness.

I've got some additional MDT rules, though, in my game. Strikes on Flat-Footed opponents always cause MDT saves at DC 10 + 1/2 Dmg. Critical hits always cause MDT saves, as well. This because FDH keeps people from getting MDTed as often, and to reflect a little more reality. This was the reason for alot of dead guards in armor. The stealthy PC was trying to sneak around, at one instance, past a guard. He got spotted, but managed to swiftly close the distance and get in a dagger thrust. The guy was flat footed still and failed the DC 11 save and died silently and quickly enough the hero was able to continue on (after hiding the body).

The Flat-Footed is pretty rough, but I let Uncanny Dodge counter it and those initial DCs are low enough people can often make them. It really nudges the PCs to strike from surprise and not enter combat needlessly ... and even at 5th level they're cautious about entering any fray. Even with FDH in place.

--fje

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I've got some additional MDT rules, though, in my game. Strikes on Flat-Footed opponents always cause MDT saves at DC 10 + 1/2 Dmg.

A happy medium might be to just eliminate FDH against flat-footed foes. All damage is lethal damage until you are actively defending yourself.

In my games I also make certain that all falling damage requires a Fort save. (This as a direct result of my D&D character twice falling over 140 feet and simply brushing himself off...)

Wulf

 

[GlassJaw]

A happy medium might be to just eliminate FDH against flat-footed foes. All damage is lethal damage until you are actively defending yourself.

Actually, that's a pretty good idea. In Grim Tales, you can really boost your Initiative mod but getting sneak attack damage is more difficult than in standard D&D. This would give a small bonus to those with high Init's.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

That could work as well. I'd have to see. Getting any sneak attack in GT is a bit of a pain, as you have to be at least a 3rd level Smart hero and most people going "rogue" will want Fast as well, meaning you often won't see any SA damage until 4th-6th level. That means Sneak Attack is best saved for "Assasins" and other higher-CR threats and PCs because by the time you get that, you've got quite a few other abilities and feats under your belt.

What I mean is, you're not getting alot of damage on even flat-footed foes until middle-levels. I seldom see games progress past 8th level before our plot arcs have rounded out and we're spiraling down the game. If you have Sneak Attack and no FDH, you'll start actually provoking MDT saves once in a while.

What I've found is that MDT comes up 9 times in 10 on Critical Hits. Most people in a MDT game won't leave Con at 10. Your average con is 12 or better.

Now, for me, the problem comes is that in all of my Modern/GT games, the focus of combat has been, naturally, on ranged weapons and firearms. They have pretty fixed damage outputs, unlike melee weapons, and REALLY the average damage is 5-9 points per hit. This doesn't threaten most people, or even mooks. So I get to the point where even when a hit threatens, it's been so long since the MDT rules come up, even -I- forget that it's a threat and a save should be rolled. We just wince and keep on trucking.

A good number of crits threaten anyway, and, as I said, most threats I've found are on crits. By making a house rule that all crits threaten, the MDT rule comes up often enough that we remember to use it. It adds a little to smaller, lighter weapons, which I like ... in D&D if a skinny guy comes at you with a dagger, after 3rd level you're liable to laugh at him. This way when I have a pack of evil assasins come bleeding out of the woodwork with their cruel curved knives the PCs get freaked.

But it's very much a style thing. If I were playing, say, Conan the Destroyer and wanted the focus to be on big muscley guys with broadswords and no shirts, I'd play down the flatfooted bonuses to remove some edge from ranged weapons and fast fellows.

--fje

 

[drnuncheon]

One thing to consider: +8 doesn't necessarily have to be the 'top end' for armor. If limiting Defense to the max dex bonus of the armor is a problem, then you could just set the defensive value of, say, plate armor to be higher than the top-end Defense bonus. This would have the additional side benefit of allowing you to differentiate more between the light and medium armor categories, and between the types of medium armor.

Alternately, set Defense bonus multipliers by armor category - perhaps no or light armor allows you to use your full Defense bonus, medium armor allows you to use 2/3 of your defense bonus, and heavy armor only 1/3. Your high level character wearing plate is still better off than your low level character wearing plate, and the point where the defense bonus becomes better than the armor isn't until a Defense of +12 or so. If that's mechanically impossible to achieve then you should be fine.

J