Grim Tales - EL, experience, etc

[Plane Sailing]

Hi Wulf,

I'm going through Grim Tales in a scattered, piecemeal fashion, and I've got some questions about the EL method in the gamesmastering section to make sure I've got my head wrapped around it properly. Would it be OK to discuss them here? I think they might be of general interest.

In no particular order they are:

1. The suggested exp system looks like it is one that maintains any difference in level between PCs, unlike the 3.5e/FR xp system which allows lower level characters to catch up. How easy is it to change things to reflect this? What would be the impact of, for instance, calculating individual xp based on average party level, maximum party level or some other multiplier other than straight character level?

2. I understand the principle that EL doesn't go up as fast as CR at high levels because high CR creatures rarely get to strut all their stuff Is there a mathematical basis behind the rate it slows down, or is it a rule of thumb, or ad-hoc?

3. Similarly, the reduction in EL due to number of creatures contributing - is there a mathematical basis to that, or an ad-hoc relationship?

4. Do you anticipate ad-hoc adjustments to the EL based on encounter circumstances (e.g. the orcs are divebombing with gliders... +1 EL) or even party circumstances (the party doesn't have any clerics, undead encounters get +1 EL).

(for my next couple of adventures I'm using the GT EL system to estimate encounter threat levels for the PC's, and I'm intrigued to find out how closely it measures up in practice. FWIW the party is level 12, 12, 10, 10, 10, 10 which comes out to EL19, I believe.)

Cheers

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I'm sure Wulf has a lot to say about your questions, but many of the answers can be found in the house rules forum, in the challenge ratings thread.
The system is the creation of ENWorld's own Upper_Krust for use with his forthcoming Immortals Handbook.
In my experience, the 'new' EL system works very well.



Edit: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66470
The thread is *very* long, but you can dl the CR system and maybe that'll help.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Thanks for the link, I'll go check it out.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hi Wulf,

I'm going through Grim Tales in a scattered, piecemeal fashion, and I've got some questions about the EL method in the gamesmastering section to make sure I've got my head wrapped around it properly. Would it be OK to discuss them here? I think they might be of general interest.

This is a fine place to discuss it. Did you use the GRIM TALES thread tag?

1. The suggested exp system looks like it is one that maintains any difference in level between PCs, unlike the 3.5e/FR xp system which allows lower level characters to catch up. How easy is it to change things to reflect this?

Party XP Awards:

1. Total all party character levels (just levels, not CR).
2. Multiply total party levels x XP award.
3. Divide total XP by number of characters.

This will "boost" the lower level characters and "drag down" the higher level characters. The total amount of XP awarded is the same; only the distribution is different.

2. I understand the principle that EL doesn't go up as fast as CR...

and

3. Similarly, the reduction in EL due to number of creatures contributing - is there a mathematical basis to that, or an ad-hoc relationship?

It's a logarithmic relationship (log2). I have emailed you a spreadsheet that will make calculations for you. This file is a work in progress and will eventually be uploaded to the Bad Axe website.

Logarithmic formulas do not make for pretty text in a book-- but the tables are easier to use. Just be aware that if you use the tables in the book (as opposed to the true and accurate mathematical method) you can get some wonky results from time to time, especially when you are mixing creatures of different CR, or when adding a creature that takes you over a "break point" of combatants (say, adding a 16th creature to move the modifier up to the 16-23 bracket). If the 16th creature's CR doesn't increase the total EL, then you'll get a situation where the EL just went DOWN as a result of adding another creature.

4. Do you anticipate ad-hoc adjustments to the EL based on encounter circumstances (e.g. the orcs are divebombing with gliders... +1 EL) or even party circumstances (the party doesn't have any clerics, undead encounters get +1 EL).

Yes, you can do that. It would be rare for tactical circumstances to move the EL more than +/- 1. Remember that in order for the EL to move by a factor of +2, the CR has to double.

(for my next couple of adventures I'm using the GT EL system to estimate encounter threat levels for the PC's, and I'm intrigued to find out how closely it measures up in practice. FWIW the party is level 12, 12, 10, 10, 10, 10 which comes out to EL19, I believe.)

Correct, EL19.


Wulf

 

[BryonD]

I had a couple opinion questions on this system specifically in relation to Grim Tales.

You state that the level of equipment should be established by the GM. That makes sense. However, the CRs in D20 books (theoretically) assume the standard equipment levels. With the absence of stacks of items in Grim Tales, it seems that total equipment would be lower than for D&D or D20 modern. So if you want to correctly rate Character CRs and party EL, it seems you would need to establish the quantity of gear based on the DMG standards. If you want your party of level 9 characters to have 4th level gear, that is fine. But you still need to consider that when you determine how many ogres to throw at the party. Correct?

Along the same lines:
Would you say that the DR value, while good for D&D, may be low for Grim Tales? Obviously not for things like 5/crushing. But 5/magic could effectively be 5/-- in many cases.

By the same token is immunity to magic and/or SR overrated because it will come in to play so much less frequently?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You state that the level of equipment should be established by the GM. That makes sense. However, the CRs in D20 books (theoretically) assume the standard equipment levels. With the absence of stacks of items in Grim Tales, it seems that total equipment would be lower than for D&D or D20 modern. So if you want to correctly rate Character CRs and party EL, it seems you would need to establish the quantity of gear based on the DMG standards. If you want your party of level 9 characters to have 4th level gear, that is fine. But you still need to consider that when you determine how many ogres to throw at the party. Correct?

Absolutely correct.

You will have to reconcile Chapter 14 with essential elements of Chapter 13. Generally speaking 1 Character Level = 1 CR. I refer you to page 177, Section 11: Wealth.

1 Character Level = ~.8 CR.
PC Equipment is worth +.2 CR.
NPC Equipment is worth +.125 CR.

You can use that as a starting point to determine balanced encounters.

Along the same lines:
Would you say that the DR value, while good for D&D, may be low for Grim Tales? Obviously not for things like 5/crushing. But 5/magic could effectively be 5/-- in many cases.

By the same token is immunity to magic and/or SR overrated because it will come in to play so much less frequently?

Both situations are correct. DR isn't as big of an issue as its contribution to overall CR is pretty small; and don't forget you can spend an action point to ignore DR for a round.

SR can end up overrating a creature's CR, but in this case any deviation in CR is usually in the favor of the players.

The GM has to use his common sense, here. Obviously if he's using creatures with SR, one would hope the campaign uses magic. The number of situations where SR is inflating the creature's CR against the vast majority of encounters where no magic is used against it is probably balanced by the one encounter where the PC casts a spell (a spell with a very grim cost, mind you) and the SR works.


Wulf

 

[Plane Sailing]

This is a fine place to discuss it. Did you use the GRIM TALES thread tag?

I have now... I used Badaxegames, but didn't look down at the "campaign settings" because, like, Grim Tales isn't a campaign setting

It's a logarithmic relationship (log2). I have emailed you a spreadsheet that will make calculations for you. This file is a work in progress and will eventually be uploaded to the Bad Axe website.

Cheers. I remember all about log2 relationships when I was producing an excel spreadsheet to replicate the WotC xps tables :\

Yes, you can do that. It would be rare for tactical circumstances to move the EL more than +/- 1. Remember that in order for the EL to move by a factor of +2, the CR has to double.

Yep, +/-1 was roughly what I was thinking of. Undead is a particularly key issue, since my PC's without a cleric encountering half a dozen wraiths would have an awful time surviving, while if they had a cleric it would be a cakewalk. Undead (at least mid level undead) have some of the greatest variability in potential challenge that I know.

Next question (apologies if the book covers this in the details), does this work with WotC CR values, or does it really need upper krusts calculated CRs?

Cheers

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Next question (apologies if the book covers this in the details), does this work with WotC CR values, or does it really need upper krusts calculated CRs?

First of all, the EL system will work with the core CRs. You will find that your sample party (EL19) will be equally challenged by the same encounter whether or not you use the core or the GT system.

Caveat: This does start to break down at higher levels, because the "span" of CR between each discreet EL is wider. That is specifically the "fix" that UK's system was designed for. This doesn't mean that UKs system is "wrong," just that it is more accurate.

Although the system presented scales infinitely, I don't really see folks using GT for epic campaigns. It should be fine out to 20th level.

As for the CR system itself, it's a bit complicated.

It depends on whether you are making a monster, or adding CR to a character. (Without getting into too much detail, some things are better for a character than for a monster-- any "at will" ability is more powerful in the hands of a player, because of the amount of "stage time" they have.)

So for Monsters:

1) Add up all of the CR factors as you build the creature.

2) Apply the Golden Rule. This rule keeps you from overbuilding a creature with lots of abilities and few HD. Essentially, it makes sure that HD are properly "weighted" in the equation.

3) Round it off.

4) Take the total and multiply by 2/3. This will bring the CR back in line with the core values.

4a) If you're creating a dragon, and you are just fine with the way dragon CRs are calculated in the core rules (that is, dragons are seriously undervalued for their CR in order that they are overpowering when encountered) then instead of multiplying by 2/3, multiply by 1/2.

For Characters it is much simpler: Every bit of CR you add goes fully to the character's CR. You do not apply the Golden Rule but you SHOULD take care not to add more than the character's HD in extra CR-- otherwise the character's CR will be inflated but he will lack the HD to survive an equivalent CR encounter.

Another way of putting it would be to recommend applying the Golden Rule to a character to see what CR would truly be a balanced encounter; but count the character's full CR when awarding XP.

It has been discussed that you can ignore about +0.5 in additional CR on characters when creating new starting races. Just keep the playing field level.

By the way, I have also commissioned a few folks to make an Excel sheet that encompasses the Creature Creation rules in full; to date, about half a dozen folks have started the project only to give up. If anyone ever manages to complete the work, I will post it at the Bad Axe website.


Wulf

 

[BryonD]

I had forgotten about the action point to bypass DR.

And you make some good points about SR. I guess a year or more working on it lets you think these things through.

I had e-mailed you regarding a CR/EL spreadsheet. But I never heard back.
I'm confident I could do it. E-mail me if you are interested.

my ENWorld username AT mindspringDOTcom

 

[BryonD]

and don't forget you can spend an action point to ignore DR for a round.

Where can I find this? I see it mentioned in passing on page 3, but it refers to Chapter 6 without providing details. I can not find it in Chapter 6.