[GRIM TALES] GlassJaw's Grim Tales Variant Ruleset v1.2! (updated 9/29/05)

[Wulf Ratbane]

This I like. I'll be bringing the idea up to my player in Pledge of Tyranny; we've been somewhat bothered by a few of the Armor as DR system's foibles. This just may solve it, especially since both of the plot-crucial NPCs introduced in the story hour would be making use of it, while the PC is more interested in Power Attack.

Another possible (?) advantage I see is an option to allow it for ranged attacks as well as melee. High-level archers could then pierce the DR of a tough opponent.

Thanks for the idea, Wulf.

The last thing GlassJaw and I were discussing was making the armor DR values a little more constant-- instead of DR 1d8 for plate mail, for example, I'd use d4+4. (I definitely don't like a system that runs the gamut of die types from d2 to d3 to d8.)

Of course, d4+4 does screw the guy with the dagger. I'd consider allowing the "Subtract from BAB to reduce DR" as a standard combat option (or, to call it by what it really is, "Called Shot") and make a separate feat to further improve "finessable" weapons to the 2-for-1 benefit.

GlassJaw also pointed out that, if you are using any kind of armor-damage system (as in d20 Conan) then using this "Called Shot" variant negates any damage to the armor that might otherwise occur (obviously, as the intent is to bypass the armor).

Wulf

 

[genshou]

The last thing GlassJaw and I were discussing was making the armor DR values a little more constant-- instead of DR 1d8 for plate mail, for example, I'd use d4+4. (I definitely don't like a system that runs the gamut of die types from d2 to d3 to d8.)

Of course, d4+4 does screw the guy with the dagger. I'd consider allowing the "Subtract from BAB to reduce DR" as a standard combat option (or, to call it by what it really is, "Called Shot") and make a separate feat to further improve "finessable" weapons to the 2-for-1 benefit.

GlassJaw also pointed out that, if you are using any kind of armor-damage system (as in d20 Conan) then using this "Called Shot" variant negates any damage to the armor that might otherwise occur (obviously, as the intent is to bypass the armor).

Wulf

I don't mind an average-strength dagger wielder being screwed by full plate–it takes a very strong thrust to get that weapon in there even if you do go for the weak spots. The idea of using a more constant system is great–would it always be (armor bonus/2 + die of sufficient amount to cover full bonus)?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The idea of using a more constant system is great–would it always be (armor bonus/2 + die of sufficient amount to cover full bonus)?

I can confidently answer "NO" to your suggestion, although I haven't given it enough thought to propose an alternative.

I'd probably flatten the armor categories quite a bit. Off the top of my head...

Light = DR 1, DR2, to DR 1d4
Medium = DR 1d4+1 to 1d4+2
Heavy = DR 1d4+3 to 1d4+4

If you want to have a diverse selection of armors within a specific category, you will have to find other ways to make them distinct from one another (see Grim Tales).

 

[genshou]

I can confidently answer "NO" to your suggestion, although I haven't given it enough thought to propose an alternative.

I'd probably flatten the armor categories quite a bit. Off the top of my head...

Light = DR 1, DR2, to DR 1d4
Medium = DR 1d4+1 to 1d4+2
Heavy = DR 1d4+3 to 1d4+4

If you want to have a diverse selection of armors within a specific category, you will have to find other ways to make them distinct from one another (see Grim Tales).

I'm using all the armors listed in the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook, as well as those in Oriental Adventures. I need the armor to be distinct enough that there's a reason to accept a -1 greater armor check penalty and/or -5% greater arcane spell failure in order to get better protection.

Once you have an alternative worked out, let me know. I'll see how I like it compared with my own crazy and untested ideas

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm using all the armors listed in the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook, as well as those in Oriental Adventures. I need the armor to be distinct enough that there's a reason to accept a -1 greater armor check penalty and/or -5% greater arcane spell failure in order to get better protection.

Once you have an alternative worked out, let me know. I'll see how I like it compared with my own crazy and untested ideas

The problem is, players will "clump" their armor choices around the best armor in any given category: the chain shirt, the breastplate, and full plate.

Now, it may be that the player behind Jimmy the Sneak would like a look with lots of studs, straps, and buckles, but he's not willing to sub-optimize his armor choice for a look. So he wears a chain shirt.

The same goes for Bob the Tank. He's always been a fan of the "look" of banded mail, but, let's face it-- banded mail sucks.

So you will actually see a greater diversity of armor types if they are functionally identical, because then players will feel a greater freedom to make their choice based on what looks coolest for their character.

I touched on this a bit in the Firearms chapter, actually.


Wulf

 

[genshou]

The problem is, players will "clump" their armor choices around the best armor in any given category: the chain shirt, the breastplate, and full plate.

Now, it may be that the player behind Jimmy the Sneak would like a look with lots of studs, straps, and buckles, but he's not willing to sub-optimize his armor choice for a look. So he wears a chain shirt.

The same goes for Bob the Tank. He's always been a fan of the "look" of banded mail, but, let's face it-- banded mail sucks.

So you will actually see a greater diversity of armor types if they are functionally identical, because then players will feel a greater freedom to make their choice based on what looks coolest for their character.

I touched on this a bit in the Firearms chapter, actually.


Wulf

THe problem with this is that you'd also have to change the penalties associated with those armors in order to have them be truly optimum choices. I don't personally have a problem with players picking the best armor types; after all, full plate does provide more and better coverage than half-plate, splint, or banded mail. So, why shouldn't it grant a greater statistical bonus?

I was disappointed with the lack of diversity in d20 Modern firearms, but D&D armor is just fine to me the way it is.

 

[genshou]

As a corollary to the above, I've never been happy with d20 Modern armor, either. So whatever system you devise is fine with me, just not in my D&D games.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

THe problem with this is that you'd also have to change the penalties associated with those armors in order to have them be truly optimum choices.

Somehow I think you must have missed my point.

I don't personally have a problem with players picking the best armor types; after all, full plate does provide more and better coverage than half-plate, splint, or banded mail. So, why shouldn't it grant a greater statistical bonus?

It's Darwinism at work. If you are an armorsmith in Waterdeep, you are wasting time and materials if you make splint mail. Masterwork studded leather, chain shirts, breastplates, and full plate will fly off the shelves. Everyone walking down the street will be wearing one of these.

If Full Plate is statistically the best armor, then it will be the armor that players choose. So as a GM, I'm not going to waste my time trying to twink out minor differences between splint, banded, half-plate, and full plate armor.

When was the last time you saw a fighter choose splint mail? "Market forces" will quickly make sub-par armor choices obsolete.

On the other hand, if the GM makes the armors statistically identical (they are all "heavy armor") then you will actually see a greater diversity of armor types used in play.

There are essentially 8 different armor types in the PHB: they run from +1 AC to +8 AC. All other statistical differences between these armors apply one or more of the following:

category (light, medium, heavy)
armor check penalty
max dex bonus
arcane spell failure
cost

I've suggested 7 different armor categories (DR1 through DR1d4+4). I think you can handle it from here.

Wulf

 

[genshou]

Somehow I think you must have missed my point.

Probably, but let's take a look just to make sure:

It's Darwinism at work. If you are an armorsmith in Waterdeep, you are wasting time and materials if you make splint mail. Masterwork studded leather, chain shirts, breastplates, and full plate will fly off the shelves. Everyone walking down the street will be wearing one of these.

If Full Plate is statistically the best armor, then it will be the armor that players choose. So as a GM, I'm not going to waste my time trying to twink out minor differences between splint, banded, half-plate, and full plate armor.

When was the last time you saw a fighter choose splint mail? "Market forces" will quickly make sub-par armor choices obsolete.

On the other hand, if the GM makes the armors statistically identical (they are all "heavy armor") then you will actually see a greater diversity of armor types used in play.

No, it looks like I understood your point, I just didn't (and still don't) agree that such a problem exists or that the decrease in versatility needs to be made. If every Heavy armor is the same, why would anyone pay a fortune for full plate?

Nothing's ever bugged me that PCs are all running around in only three types of armor, except than that those armors would be more than a straight statistical bonus in the real world. Sometimes, a breastplate would be far superior to chainmail, and vice versa. In an abstract gaming concept, though, it does tend to create that problem. The only reason I've ever seen a PC use sub-optimal armor was because it was an already heavily enchanted (and randomly generated) piece of equipment they found. But remember that the PCs are the exception, not the norm. For every 3rd-level or higher heroic character, there are hundreds (or more) of 1st-level characters (both PC and NPC classes) out there. A particularly well-equipped king might use splint mail for his army, whereas an extraordinarily well-off kingdom would use only the finest if war were their focus. In stark contrast, a kingdom that has fallen on hard times would not only favor lighter armors, but give the best in each category only to their highest-ranking officers. You don't see Joe Schmoe the pikeman in a breastplate; he's probably wearing scale mail at best, or hide at worst. It should make sense that anyone with a few thousand gold pieces to throw around should have really nice adventuring gear. A simple cottage costs 1,000gp according to the DMG, and a breastplate costs 200. You could buy a new low-end economy car for about 1/5 the price of a crappy house. Now compare that to full plate. A decent 2nd-level human Expert with Int 12 and Skill Focus (Craft[Underwater Basketweaving]) can earn an average of as much as 9 sp per week. That gets him an amazing 39 sp per month. If he lived self-sufficiently, he'd spend 20 sp per month. If he saved all the extra money, he could afford a suit of full plate after 2 years, 2 months.

If you have a problem with PCs always wanting the "best" equipment (from an abstract D&D perspective), then perhaps you need to take a step back and ask "Why am I changing this? How will it make my game better?" If you can find the right answer, then go for it! But it seems to me your problem stems from a dislike of power scaling, which is something you can't take out of the system without taking the entire system out. I don't see the problem with PCs having the best nonmagical equipment available in their possession once they get a ways into 2nd or 3rd level. Let them; they'll be needing it. If they want to spend 1,500gp just to get that +8 AC armor, that's their choice. They could also buy a ring of deflection +1 for only 1,000gp (at least that's the price in 3rd Ed, can anyone state the price in 3.5 for me?), and that would apply even against touch attacks.

There are essentially 8 different armor types in the PHB: they run from +1 AC to +8 AC. All other statistical differences between these armors apply one or more of the following:

category (light, medium, heavy)
armor check penalty
max dex bonus
arcane spell failure
cost

I've suggested 7 different armor categories (DR1 through DR1d4+4). I think you can handle it from here.

Wulf

So if I'm understanding you right, then instead of
+1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +8

You would have
1, 1d2, 1d4, 1d4+1, 1d4+2, 1d4+3, 1d4+4

Is that right?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

So if I'm understanding you right, then instead of
+1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +8

You would have
1, 1d2, 1d4, 1d4+1, 1d4+2, 1d4+3, 1d4+4

Is that right?

No,

DR1, DR2, DR1d4, 1d4+1, 1d4+2, 1d4+3, 1d4+4.