D&D 5E Grindy D&D Next Combat

[erachima]

I ran and played 4E for a solid four years, so do me a favor and don't tell me my experience wasn't what it was. It may have worked one way for you, but that doesn't make it the same for everybody.

I don't think I ever saw an ambush turn a serious fight into a curbstomp. What I found was that surprise just made a curbstomp faster that was going to happen anyhow. Sure, maybe it saved the party a healing surge or two, but that was it. A tough fight was a little less tough if you got surprise, but it wasn't easy.

If you played for four years and couldn't fix your combat lengths, then that's certainly your experience, but your experience certainly doesn't attest well to your advice-giving qualifications on the subject.

The average (non-waved) combat length is 2-4 rounds, a surprise round reduces that to about 1.5 and generally trivializes the fight.

 

[DEFCON 1]

MY average (non-waved) combat length is 2-4 rounds, a surprise round reduces that to about 1.5 and generally trivializes the fight.

Fixed it for you.

 

[keterys]

I used to play a lot more 4e than I do now, but that's the average over the several hundred tables of 4e I did observe as a DM or PC (pretty even mix, with lots of exposure since I DM at conventions, played online, etc). Make of that as you will.

I can very much confirm it is the case for all of the adventures I write among playtest and reported groups, as well as for the adventures I've playtested, with the exception of Lair Assault - which is really its own beast.

 

[erachima]

Fixed it for you.

No, you didn't. My own average is 2-3.

This isn't a nihilistic vacuum, averages exist and 2-4 is it. If you normally experience 10 round combats, you are functionally playing a different game.

 

[TerraDave]

[MENTION=6746646]erachima[/MENTION]: many of use are playing a different game.

Its called 4E.

 

[jadrax]

I don't really think the surprise rules have much to do with the OP's issue.

 

[Zaruthustran]

your experience certainly doesn't attest well to your advice-giving qualifications on the subject.

says the complete stranger, with 3 posts to his name, who self-identifies in his profile as belonging to the 19-24 age bracket.

Oh yeah, Erachima. You are definitely the right person to judge D&D message board qualifications.

I chide because I love. Welcome to ENWorld. Just consider, perhaps, adopting a less confrontational stance.

 

[Zustiur]

Why would surprised people not have their weapons drawn? In my experience, PCs exploring a dungeon keep their weapons drawn at all times, for obvious reasons. If you start leaning heavily on this rule as a way to make surprise more effective, they'll extend that policy to wilderness travel, to campsites... pretty much anywhere they can get away with it. Only when they're in town will they sheathe their blades, and then only if you make a point of noting how townspeople react to a gang of desperadoes wandering around with drawn swords.

Now, such a rule could make monsters more vulnerable to surprise, but that still only affects monsters that a) use weapons and b) keep them in sheaths. A dragon doesn't have to draw its claws, a wizard doesn't have to draw her spells, and weapons like spears and halberds are likely to be carried in hand.

To be fair, I wasn't talking so much about the party... yes, you're correct, players typically state that their characters have weapons drawn at all times. However, in an actual ambush situation, the group being ambushed would be unlikely to be prepared for combat. Hence the term ambush. A party in a dungeon is expecting combat around every corner, so I'd be inclined to say that they can't be genuinely surprised when dungeon crawling. However, a party set upon by assassins while walking through a crowded marketplace should be unprepared. Likewise while travelling any decent distance overland, there should be a clear understanding that walking for 8 miles with your sword drawn is not going to happen.

Take 4e modules as an example, there are several occasions where you can catch monsters sitting around eating or gambling. Yet when the party surprises these groups, the monsters are standing as if ready for combat. There is no expectation of them being unprepared. They are neither seated (prone) nor unarmed. This is what I'm suggesting is flawed and could be fixed with a guideline stating that surprised combatants generally start with weapons sheathed.
As for those monsters who use natural weapons - Good. Not having to draw weapons is one of the benefits of using natural weapons, and should be rewarded as such.

 

[Zustiur]

A 2-3 round combat is not my experience either. Though the combats seem to be getting shorter as we reach higher levels. It is unusual [in my group] to finish a combat without having used all of my encounter attack powers, so that's a minimum of 3 rounds. But back to the point - Who is having this sort of problem in Next? Sadly I haven't had a chance to play it yet.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

This isn't a nihilistic vacuum, averages exist and 2-4 is it. If you normally experience 10 round combats, you are functionally playing a different game.

Please cite your source.