[Gripe] Gamers are really getting spoiled

[Nightfall]

Have to agree Glyfair. This is definately one of the nicer spots to post on and tell people why I think the Scarred Lands is cool!

 

[mmu1]

While I think I dislike pointless griping as much as anyone, I actually think that, in general, the standards are MUCH too low in the fantasy hobby community. People ought to complain more (constructively) or be a little more selective when voting with their wallets.

What I really can't stand is the "How can you be complaining, if it wasn't for these guys, the hobby wouldn't even exist, you ought to be grateful they're even putting out games for you to play." attitude I see a lot of people have. It doesn't exactly encourage the companies to try harder, when, for example, no one minds that products which are in development for months don't even come close to the proofreading and editing standards of a decent daily paper. These aren't "labor of love" projects released for free over the net (please make a donation if you've enjoyed it) - these people are running businesses, they want your money, and they sure as hell ought to have to hustle for it...

 

[Nightfall]

Right. I guess I'm not much of a capitalist or something. I just want people to enjoy what they are doing, in a gaming community. After all this IS a hobby, not market research at Enron.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I think the real issue here is that the companies that are producing gaming materials have to be in it for the money. They have no other choice. You can't really set up a gaming company that is a non-profit organization (though I would appreciate the effort if anyone dared put such a thing together). And please don't start mentioning Internet E-zines. You usually don't pay for them and the art and editing is usually several grades below what you would expect from a printed product.

Anyway, if the company isn't making money, something must either be cut back or reworked. Sometimes this means that us consumers see the results of these cut backs. Yes its unfortunate, but its also necessary for the survival of the game. Art and editing can be expensive. Extra issues of a magazine can destroy profitability. Without profitability the game or product dies. Which would we rather have - a perfect product in a line that dies or a flawed product with a line that continues to grow and expand despite its shortcomings? I agree that it isn't an easy choice, but these are things that people need to consider.

 

[jdavis]

Everywhere there are people posting on the internet, regardless of the topic, there are lots of people complaining. Wrestling boards have been that way for years, computer boards are horrible (check out any Linux vs Windows thread) heck even general current event boards are pretty bad. It is cool to be different and complain, being negative is hip. Nothing new here, it's always been cool to be against the status quo. The internet is just such a wonderful tool for communication that it's easier for everybody to get their 2 cents in.

As far as quality issues go that isn't just a gaming issue, every industry has quality control problems, some cars are just lemons, some appliances break as soon as you get them and sometimes you open a box and get the wrong thing. I don't think it's time to report the gaming industry to consumer reports but I do believe people should push to have defective items replaced. As far as Errata goes, well they don't have to do that, it is a service they are providing in order to keep people happy with their products, I am thrilled they care enough to go back and fix stuff.

Gaming is a luxury item, people buy these products because they want to have them, like any purchase a little research before purchase never hurts, If you hear alot of negative feedback about a company or a product then it is probably better to get a first hand look at it before you buy or to just not buy it. There is a difference between critisizing a product that wasn't what it was supposed to be and just griping about it because you didn't like it.

I really enjoy the post here because most people try to argue a topic rather than just gripe and moan. It reminds me more of the High School debate team than just a bunch of people spouting off crap. Heated discussions on topics are wonderful, and when threads devolve into finger pointing and personal attacks they are normally shut down pretty quick.

 

[mythago]

I'm really not getting the line of reasoning that hey, it's only a hobby, and writing something halfway decent is expensive, so be grateful for what you do get.

Maybe it's because I know people in the gaming industry, and I know that so many of them bust their butts to make their products as correct, interesting, typo-free, and easy on the eyes as they can. So when a company tries to sell me (not give away, not offer on the Internet--SELL, as in, for my money) a piece of crap, I really am not buying the Labor of Luv argument.

It's important to consider whether a mistake is the exception or the norm. Sure, once in a while I'll buy a book whose binding falls apart--if I own lots of other sturdy books from the same company, or all my friends say "Gee, our copies are fine," I assume it's just one of those things. Everyone makes typos from time to time. Errata can creep into the most closely-checked works. It happens, and griping about these things is sillly; perfection is reserved for Allah and all that.

But I deeply resent the notion that gamers SHOULD have low standards, and that badly-edited, half-assed, sloppily-made amateurish product ought not to be criticized because We're All Gamers Together And Darn It, They Tried Hard.

 

[jdavis]

But I deeply resent the notion that gamers SHOULD have low standards, and that badly-edited, half-assed, sloppily-made amateurish product ought not to be criticized because We're All Gamers Together And Darn It, They Tried Hard.

I think that is why people should read reviews of products and when somebody buys a product that is poorly made then they should gripe, and they should let it be known.

I think there is a difference between complaining because your product was sub par and the people who just gripe because they don't agree with everything that is written. A product that is poorly edited or falls apart a week after it was bought is a completely different complaint than not liking the ideas in a book. I have read alot of stuff that said this or that book was crap because it had statements I didn't like or I thought the rules or storyline was bad. Thats opinion, not everybody agrees on everything, but instead of people saying "I didn't like this because of ...." they say "that was the worst piece of crap ever published and the whole company is worthless and the person who wrote it is a idiot and...." I think alot of people go overboard sometimes.

I think it is important to be vocal about positive things too, I bought the Tome of Horrors based on what I read at EN World and how good everyone said it was. If it wasn't for everything positive I read I wouldn't of bought it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Extra issues of a magazine can destroy profitability. Without profitability the game or product dies. Which would we rather have - a perfect product in a line that dies or a flawed product with a line that continues to grow and expand despite its shortcomings? I agree that it isn't an easy choice, but these are things that people need to consider.

I'd rather it died than become a parody of itself.

People have a right to complain if something is not up to par. If a magazine has produced an annual for several years, and people have received that annual as part of their subscription or have bought it on the newsstand, and that annual is cancelled, then it is no sin to voice a complaint about it. I don't see that as being spoiled; I see it as being a good consumer. For some reason, any complaint whatsoever is too often labelled as whining. Sure, there is plenty of whining, but in the case of what prompted this thread, I think there are legitimate complaints. The idea that we should lay off criticizing something or watch the hobby die or somesuch encourages mediocrity. The scifi community has had such arguments going on forever; a large contingent of fans wants any and all scifi on TV or in the movies supported, because any scifi is better than none - according to those who think along these lines. Many disagree with this notion, and feel that unless the scifi community begins to show discernment in what it chooses to support, the relative quality of scifi will suffer, and has suffered.

Furthermore, in regards to what started this discussion, the complaining was about the fact that the complaints of others got the Dragon annual cancelled. At least, the complaining was offered as one of the reaons for its cancellation. Regardless, even if the primary reason for the cancellation was economic, which I believe it was, people still have not only a right, but an obligation to voice their objections.

Finally, my main objection was that positive feedback is ignored while negative feedback is apparently obsessed upon. It would be cool if the praise that has been offered carried as much weight as the complaining.

 

[mythago]

Dragon's annual got cancelled because of complaints? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever hoid.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Dragon's annual got cancelled because of complaints? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever hoid.

As I said, that was offered as one of the reasons.

And let me say, as I've said many, many times, that I really like Dragon, and I think that some of the new concepts, like Campaign Components, are fantastic. I simply disagree with this particular decision.