Grittier D&D (Wounds)

[Garthanos]

The concept of a "death spiral" is basically irrelevant. Our group also plays Star Wars and nobody complains about the Condition Track. It's just a game penalty that has to be taken into account when deciding upon actions. Just like being prone makes the PC -2 to hit.

Maybe for you ... but for me a death spiral is neither realistic [ A minus one when wounded is about the extent you can justify for realism, at least during the encounter you receive the wound ] as its proponents claim, nor heroic, in keeping with 4e design goals.

If one weakens the PC by taking away powers, it's just a different type of "death spiral". If they lose a stronger power, it means that even if they hit with a weaker power, they still do less damage per attack. It still weakens the PC.

And it weakens them in a way.. which translates like.. yes your character has brain damage..... and you know how long that takes to heal! ;-)

 

[KarinsDad]

Maybe for you ... but for me a death spiral is neither realistic [ A minus one when wounded is about the extent you can justify for realism, at least during the encounter you receive the wound ] as its proponents claim, nor heroic, in keeping with 4e design goals.

If a -1 for being bloodied is "not heroic", than neither is combat advantage for monsters. Any penalty in the game system could be considered non-heroic.

The fact is that if a given penalty applies to both monsters and PCs, it's hard to argue that it is non-heroic because it helps PCs as much as it harms them.

And, nobody has yet to illustrated that a -1 for being bloodied or wounded IS a true death spiral.

For example, in Rolemaster the penalty for 25% wounded is -10 to actions, 50% -20, etc. That can mathematically be illustrated as a death spiral because the curve is so steep.

If you want to talk about a death spiral, look at the high level 4E math problem. That's a LOT more of a death spiral than -1 to hit when bloodied applicable to both PCs and monsters. It's totally one sided and gets as high as -4 to -7 depending on what one is talking about. It's more a death well than a death spiral because the PCs are already penalized before combat even starts.

The game has an inbuilt death spiral.

And it weakens them in a way.. which translates like.. yes your character has brain damage..... and you know how long that takes to heal! ;-)

In a game system, that could be 5 seconds. But, one could envision such a solution to be more like stun or fatigue than brain damage. Boxers get this. They forget to hold up their hands late in a bout, but they rationally know they should do this.

 

[Garthanos]

If a -1 for being bloodied is "not heroic", than neither is combat advantage for monsters. Any penalty in the game system could be considered non-heroic.

Minus 1 in a d20 system is quite realistic an I agree not a death spiral
I approve (check an earlier post), the original poster has a much more
extreme effect.

If you want to talk about a death spiral, look at the high level 4E math problem. That's a LOT more of a death spiral than -1 to hit when bloodied applicable to both PCs and monsters. It's totally one sided and gets as high as -4 to -7 depending on what one is talking about. It's more a death well than a death spiral because the PCs are already penalized before combat even starts.
The game has an inbuilt death spiral.

Heh, That just means you cant trust a monsters level as much as one might like...I have had to adapt the difficulty of adventures since I started playing back in the 70's, the difference in Player strategic ability .. is probably as big a difference...

In a game system, that could be 5 seconds.

actual brain damage lets call it a ritual ;-)

But, one could envision such a solution to be more like stun or fatigue than brain damage. Boxers get this. They forget to hold up their hands late in a bout, but they rationally know they should do this.

Fatigue makes their hands drop not forgetting anything... boxing is a special case the damage is intentionally converted to fatigue hence the heavily padded gloves.. and is a poor analog.. to sword blows. Who knows what a magic missile damage is like if its like guns we have a pretty good model ;-)

If somebody lacked the focus requirement to do there most significant abilities.(kind of like losing levels) that would be fatigue like instead of brain damage and still as you point out be possible to model with abilities that quit being useable.

I think losing abilities is not to my taste, though I can see it done by turning over a card on the table or specifying a maximum level you can use.

 

[Garthanos]

The fact is that if a given penalty applies to both monsters and PCs, it's hard to argue that it is non-heroic because it helps PCs as much as it harms them.

Heroism is being able to persevere in the face of adversity... and being just like the adversary or it being balanced has nothing to do with it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Heroism is being able to persevere in the face of adversity... and being just like the adversary or it being balanced has nothing to do with it.

Ah, but you cannot have it both ways.

Either a death spiral is bad game design and should not be in the game, or persevering in the face of adversity like a death spiral is good, and death spirals should be in the game in order to present the players with yet another type of adversity. Hence, overcoming a death spiral is heroic.

 

[Garthanos]

Ah, but you cannot have it both ways.

Either a death spiral is bad game design and should not be in the game, or persevering in the face of adversity like a death spiral is good, and death spirals should be in the game in order to present the players with yet another type of adversity. Hence, overcoming a death spiral is heroic.

Players arent the heros the characters are...

The death spiral being both not a feature of heroic fiction and not realistic according to the medical profession and the military also seals it for me.
What people think of as a 'heroic' response to injury amounts to a relatively common survival instinct (after cool down impairment is definite).... the myth is what we play and the heros should perservere and others be impaired immediately perhaps isnt that kind of what minions are for.;-)

 

[CapnZapp]

What do you think?

FYI, I've started a new thread for my suggestion where it hopefully will see more traffic:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...i-permanent-loss-powers-idea.html#post4732935
If you are interested in discussing loss of powers (but not general penalties) as a possible rule for being Downed (but not for becoming Bloodied), why don't you head over and I'll see you there!