Grognard view of One D&D?

[teitan]

Correlation is not causation though. That the OSR and the decline of 3.5 sales coincided doesn't have to mean that OSR prompted the decline. Certainly little OSRIC didn't prompt it by itself. It could well be the reverse - that the 3.5 decline itself prompted the growth of the OSR once OSRIC appeared. Or it could be both - OR it might all be a massive coincidence. One thing is certain though - 4E was a dud that drove a lot of people to other games and other editions, even if SOME people liked it. It wasn't that it was inherently bad - it could have made a fine system with some other name on it. It just wasn't what customers wanted for their D&D.

And yeah, I think 5E benefits more from good marketing and circumstances that managed to get people to look at it than from being all that spectacular of a system. But it's hard for me not to be biased. I still prefer 1 (and 3.5 when 3.5 sticks closer to lower levels).

I didn’t say or imply it did.

 

[Haplo781]

Correlation is not causation though. That the OSR and the decline of 3.5 sales coincided doesn't have to mean that OSR prompted the decline. Certainly little OSRIC didn't prompt it by itself. It could well be the reverse - that the 3.5 decline itself prompted the growth of the OSR once OSRIC appeared. Or it could be both - OR it might all be a massive coincidence. One thing is certain though - 4E was a dud that drove a lot of people to other games and other editions, even if SOME people liked it. It wasn't that it was inherently bad - it could have made a fine system with some other name on it. It just wasn't what customers wanted for their D&D.

And yeah, I think 5E benefits more from good marketing and circumstances that managed to get people to look at it than from being all that spectacular of a system. But it's hard for me not to be biased. I still prefer 1 (and 3.5 when 3.5 sticks closer to lower levels).

4e outsold every previous edition.

 

[teitan]

4e outsold every previous edition.

No. That is not correct. Preorders and release went well and then it went off a cliff.

 

[CleverNickName]

No. That is not correct. Preorders and release went well and then it went off a cliff.

For a couple of years following 4E's release, the D&D brand slipped so much that another game (Pathfinder) became the #1 RPG on the market. It was the first and only time that has ever happened.

 

[Haplo781]

For a couple of years following 4E's release, the D&D brand slipped so much that another game (Pathfinder) became the #1 RPG on the market. It was the first and only time that has ever happened.

False. It outsold 4e in core game stores.

 

[CleverNickName]

False. It outsold 4e in core game stores.

I'm not making it up. Here's my source:

Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present

This is a compilation of the icv2.com retailer surveys of Top Five Roleplaying Games. They are generally compiled quarterly (with some exceptions). ICv2 notes that "the chart [are] based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." Thanks to jodyjohnson for sterling...

www.enworld.org

In Q1 2010, shortly after the release of 4E Essentials, Dungeons & Dragons lost the top spot for the first time ever, and kept falling. It eventually dropped all the way to #5, behind Pathfinder, Star Wars, Fate, and Numinera. D&D didn't get back to #1 until after the release of 5E.

Here are the relevant graphs:

I'm not trying to hate on 4E, it was what it was. A lot of folks look back on it with rose-colored glasses, others look back with daggers in their eyes, and both are valid.

 

[Haplo781]

I'm not making it up. Here's my source:

Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present

This is a compilation of the icv2.com retailer surveys of Top Five Roleplaying Games. They are generally compiled quarterly (with some exceptions). ICv2 notes that "the chart [are] based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." Thanks to jodyjohnson for sterling...

www.enworld.org

In Q1 2010, shortly after the release of 4E Essentials, Dungeons & Dragons lost the top spot for the first time ever, and kept falling. It eventually dropped all the way to #5, behind Pathfinder, Star Wars, Fate, and Numinera. D&D didn't get back to #1 until after the release of 5E.

Here are the relevant graphs:
View attachment 262681

View attachment 262682

BASED ON DATA FROM ICV2


Maybe you should actually read links before responding to them.

 

[billd91]

I'm not making it up. Here's my source:

Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present

This is a compilation of the icv2.com retailer surveys of Top Five Roleplaying Games. They are generally compiled quarterly (with some exceptions). ICv2 notes that "the chart [are] based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." Thanks to jodyjohnson for sterling...

www.enworld.org

In Q1 2010, shortly after the release of 4E Essentials, Dungeons & Dragons lost the top spot for the first time ever, and kept falling. It eventually dropped all the way to #5, behind Pathfinder, Star Wars, Fate, and Numinera. D&D didn't get back to #1 until after the release of 5E.

Here are the relevant graphs:
View attachment 262681

View attachment 262682

Yeah, that’s about 4e’s performance in the markets ICv2 polls - mainly the game store market. That doesn’t cover direct orders, mass market bookstores like Barnes and Noble, or Amazon.
Exactly how things compare in those channels is anybody‘s guess since it isn’t public for most of the publishers.
Now, whatever other sales are, this was NOT good news since it pointed to a failure in marketing to their core market. And that’s a big hit to the hardest core gamer mindshare.

 

[Minigiant]

Now, whatever other sales are, this was NOT good news since it pointed to a failure in marketing to their core market. And that’s a big hit to the hardest core gamer mindshare.

I think it less displays a failure of marketing but a failure for designing for every major subcategory of D&D player.

D&D playstyles have more or less diverged into 4-5 different paths. WOTC's main struggle in 3e, 4e, and 5e is designing a D&D that is attractive every substype of D&D gamer. 4e sold a lot to 4e style gamers but the numbers Hasbro wanted required OS, 3e/PF, 4e, and the upcoming 5e players to all buy it.

5e was designed to snatch back the first 2 groups to hit projected numbers. However instead it pulled mostly 5e style players. What One D&D is shaping up is a strategy of being able to hit the numbers without the sales of the first wave of grognards and relying more of the coalition of post-2000 editions' fans.

 

[R_J_K75]

We’re too early in the playtest cycle for me to say where I think 6e is going

Yep. I have a feeling that the playtest will last 12-18 months, then it will be closed and WotC will do whatever they want regardless of feedback. If OneD&D is just fixes and tweaks to a half version from 5E to "5.5E" why even bother having a playtest? My bet is that we will see an entirely new edition based on the d20 chassis of 3,x and 5E, but thats just my opinion.