GSL: Am I wrong to be concerned?

[mosat]

d20 STL and OGL are two completely different animals. You can't use the d20 logo and do chargen programs, but you can use the OGL to do them.

Hyrum.

Actually you can use the d20 STL to do a chargen program, PCGen was d20 STL compliant for a brief time. There are specific things in the STL which limit what you can do, random die rolls being one of them. PCGen went back to using just the OGL so we could put back random stat generation back into the program. The OGL has no specific limitations regarding software.

We were told that the GSL would have similar language as the d20 STL with regards to software. Turns out not to be the case, the language looks to me like an outright ban.

 

[I'm A Banana]

He invented space/time. Did YOU invent space time?

I invented STRINGS.

Why not? Should I be allowed to sell a video copy I made of a DVD? Unless you mean somethign else? Seems like the want to prevent things like just taking all the info from the core books and putting them in a difefrent book you can sell for less.

Because you're not buying the content, you're buying the format. Nothing stopped WotC from putting out a Pocket Player's Handbook at all, even after Mongoose did theirs. And I bet it would've sold like absolute gangbusters, trouncing Mongoose's efforts. They didn't want to, probably because they didn't see a big enough market for it. The market that was there, Mongoose largely served. WotC didn't loose any money on this, Mongoose made some money, everyone wins.

And, I think, assuming the movies in DVD's were allowed to be copied by anyone, if I had a VHS player, and you made a VHS rip of a DVD film for me, I would probably pay you for the tape (and maybe a few extra bucks for the service).

The content was avialable for free online. Plenty of people were "leeching" by simply downloading an SRD and using that. WotC didn't care about that.

You can make the argument all day long about people who buy those games not buying D&D stuff anyway... But apparently WoTC feels it hurt the product.

I really don't think they feel that way. That's kind of what I'm saying. WotC doesn't think these things were a problem. The new GSL was not crafted because they wanted to close some loopholes. It wasn't meant to fix what was broken (because it is very debatable whether or not it was broken).

It was crafted because they have brand new concerns with 4e, and they wanted a lisence that addressed those concerns specifically. They wanted to start fresh, and work from the ground up to make something that 4e needed.

One of the major concerns with 4e is brand identity, so the GSL serves that purpose. I'd be pleasantly surprised if there were no piracy fears at WotC, but I believe it was also crafted to serve that purpose. WotC didn't want to specifically cut out Midnight or Tome of Horrors 4e, and they can't cut out things like Spycraft or True20 or Iron Heroes even with this GSL. They wanted specifically to serve 4e's needs, and they probably did that. If that ends up cutting off a vast swath of 3e publishers, I don't think WotC particularly cares. They weren't concerned with what had come before, they were concerned with what would be coming in the future.

 

[Scribble]

Who said anything about evil?

All it takes is for a new brand team (the managers of D&D) to not like the idea of the GSL and way it goes. You're then stuck with either dead product at best or a lawsuit at worst.

They might let you sell stuff off, but they don't have to. That's the sticking point.

Yeah but the same is true for them... I mean if they do something particularily A-Holish, they're going to be looking at a lawsuit. Even if it's froma bunch of companies they coukld outlast moneywise... why would they do such a thing?

1. It's a waste of their money/time, when they could just as easily say, ok sell off your product, but don't make anymore.

2. It would really really realy P-off a lot of fans/ potential customers. Not all of them sure, but again, when it's just as easy to do the above...

As for the license, in a worst case situation, they update it at 6:00 am with some provision that invalidates your products and at 7:00 am they revert back. You're in breach, they send a letter, you're in termination land. If you fight it in court, whether or not you win or lose, you still pay WotC's court costs.

Is that evil? You betcha. Do I think WotC would do it? No, I respect most of the people there and don't think they'd pull a stunt like that.

The problem is, there's nothing in the license to protect me from something like that though. That's where the concern lies. For me at least.

Hyrum.

Yeah again, I agree that people can be concerned, but I don't think it's as big a concern as some are making it out to be.

 

[Tao]

A lot of the problems being discussed here, really aren't as bad as people are making them out to be.

I'm really going to bother to address two concerns here, since they seem to be the most prominent and seem somewhat legitimate. Kamikaze, I mean no disrespect in quoting you... yours is simply the most concise statement, which makes it an easy target.

Because I don't see re-printing the stats of kobolds in an adventure so that the DM doesn't have to drag his MM around, too, to be leeching. Or even "leaching."

If you want to use Kobolds and have the stats in the adventure, you simply need to design a new Kobold variant. You cannot simply copy/paste the Kobold Slinger into your adventure (though you could, of course cross reference if you wanted to), but you could certainly make a Kobold Archer (Artillery 1) to fill the same role but in a slightly more unique way. My guess is, the better game designers are going to want to redesign monsters tailor made for their encounters anyways, so this really isn't any loss and may actually push designers away from the "Oh no! Another room full of monsters that you already know all of the abilities for!" that tended to make things like prefab dungeon delves a bit *yawn* boring for the last few years.

Yes... players may have to face unique opponents and challenges. Yes... it may be the end of D&D as we know it.

Furthermore, I don't see modifying the eladrin's stats and using them in a campaign setting as "eladrin" to be leeching.

So call them Brelani. Or High Elves. Or The Fair-folk. If they have to be Eladrin, then their stats are predefined. Sorry, name's taken. It's inconvenient at most. Hardly the end of the world.

The truth is, WotC owns the license and spent large amounts of money in the research and development of a new game system. They deserve the first stab at it. In most other industries all of this would be a foregone conclusion. I don't know why the tabletop gaming industry is supposed to be any different.

As for digital issues... I can't really speak on that. I'm a graphic designer, so I do all of my own maps in Photoshop, when needed, and have done PbP gaming without any special utilities, so I can't speak on this aspect with any amount of certainty. Who knows... maybe DDI is going to be really spectacular and make the others unnecessary... Regardless, however, its their product and they can do with it as they please. That includes not releasing their "engine" to competitors.

In the end, I think it comes down to this: "Good game designers still have all the tools they need and will simply be forced to find more creative solutions to make better products. Lazy game designers can still publish lazy products... just now they will have more references back to the origin where reprinted text once was".

 

[I'm A Banana]

Kamikaze, I mean no disrespect in quoting you... yours is simply the most concise statement, which makes it an easy target.

No offense taken, but you should know that I wasn't really trying to criticize the GSL there, nor was I really making the case that it is "difficult" or anything. I was just pointing out several things that the GSL appears to disallow that, in my book, aren't really issues of "leeching."

They're issues of brand identity and IP protection and anti-pirating speak. The GSL isn't trying to put the genie back in the bottle, it's just a brand new bottle with the genie still inside.

In the end, I think it comes down to this: "Good game designers still have all the tools they need and will simply be forced to find more creative solutions to make better products. Lazy game designers can still publish lazy products... just now they will have more references back to the origin where reprinted text once was".

...I think this is INSANELY disengenuous, and even kind of insulting. Not everyone who re-used SRD material is a lazy game designer. Indeed, I'd be hard pressed to find ANY lazy game designers or 3rd party publishers, period. If you're lazy, you do what I do and cruise message boards and post fan materials. It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of effort to get out even a minor publication, all for a reward that, if anything, is very, very little.

If you're a lazy game designer, you won't get anything published.

 

[Tao]

...I think this is INSANELY disengenuous, and even kind of insulting. Not everyone who re-used SRD material is a lazy game designer. Indeed, I'd be hard pressed to find ANY lazy game designers or 3rd party publishers, period. If you're lazy, you do what I do and cruise message boards and post fan materials. It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of effort to get out even a minor publication, all for a reward that, if anything, is very, very little.

If you're a lazy game designer, you won't get anything published.

Completely agreed... which is kind of what I was getting at. As one of the people who helped run WotC's official online fanzine not too long ago and is currently in the process of setting up a publishing company to help first time writers and illustrators "break in" to the industry, I will say that game design isn't as easy as it looks and there are plenty of people who work very hard at it. And in comparison to the other roadblocks to writing an adventure or other supplement, the limits imposed by the GSL/SRD are minuscule (and mostly irrelevant, since you can almost always use the "Applied Mechanical Results" of the system as long as you don't "show your work").


However, to say that there are no lazy game designers is a bit of a stretch. There are. The people who published the pocket PHB... didn't have to break their backs on the R&D there. Was it a good idea? Sure. But it wasn't hard. Those kinds of easy "fall in my lap" kind of products are more difficult, if not impossible, under the new GSL.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The people who published the pocket PHB... didn't have to break their backs on the R&D there. Was it a good idea? Sure. But it wasn't hard. Those kinds of easy "fall in my lap" kind of products are more difficult, if not impossible, under the new GSL.

To (a) come up with the idea and (b) find a way to make it profitable and distinguishable from the online SRD, and (c) to whittle 260 pages or so down to something that can fit in your pocket....

.....seems to me to be no mean feat. Definately more than most people are willing to put forward, or it wouldn't have found an audience (since I'm pretty confident most of the purchasers knew that the rules were freely available online for you to do the same thing with).

I mean, Descartes didn't do anything but think about the world, and I'd hardly call that man lazy.

Are the movie studios who release DVD versions of their movies lazy? It's just a different format, after all. What about when they released VHS versions of their movies?

Any flip-flopping WotC is now doing over the ability to publish stats has more to do with panic over IP than it probably has to do with WotC truly fearing a knockoff PH.

 

[Scribble]

KM...

They've made the road harder for people simply trying to repackage the rules in a different format.

They've made the road harder for people trying to rework the rules into a different game.

They've left the road open for people who want to do things such as create new powers, and feats and classes and aces and monsters et al...

They've even left room for people to publish their own adventures.

These types of products cannot be used without the core game. They're virtually useless without the core game.

You can come up with whatever reason you want, but the end result is the same.

WoTC doesn't want people making stuff utilizing their game, that doesn't promote the sale of or nessesitate their game.

p.s. I invented pants.

 

[redcard]

To (a) come up with the idea and (b) find a way to make it profitable and distinguishable from the online SRD, and (c) to whittle 260 pages or so down to something that can fit in your pocket....

.....seems to me to be no mean feat.

To be fair, a friend of mine works at a book binding company, and they're allowed to do things at cost, and he did a very similar thing about the time that Mongoose did it.

Even before 4e came out, some in my group were getting set up to print out the SRD on LULU.com. (Until, of course, they heard that it won't be like the 3.5 SRD)

 

[Tao]

Are the movie studios who release DVD versions of their movies lazy? It's just a different format, after all. What about when they released VHS versions of their movies?

Certainly not. But if another studio recut the same footage into a 30-minute television spot, and marketed it as their own product, they would likely be facing a lawsuit and blacklisting from the entire industry... regardless of whether or not it was a "good idea". And regardless of whether or not it actually cost the studio money. Letting people get away with things like that sets a bad precedent for the protection of artistic rights.

WotC has already been more open than they need to be. Heck, the fact that they give other companies almost cart blanche use their product AT ALL without any sort of licensing fee is pretty unheard of, even in this age of Open Content.

Any flip-flopping WotC is now doing over the ability to publish stats has more to do with panic over IP than it probably has to do with WotC truly fearing a knockoff PH.

I don't think they're really "fearing" either. They are simply taking what would be described by most as minor preventative measures to protect their work from outright piracy. 3PPs will be able to work and flourish under these restrictions as capably as they did under 3.5, and possibly moreso, since the nature of the SRD allows for the potential inclusion of future products as well without having to worry about taking additional measures.