GSL news.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You seem to forget that the GSL is different than the OGL. They can better exploit this flood now.

IMO the original plan and their biggest priority is to attract people and build a strong community on their online services. Your ideas are in conflict with this plan. They do not want you to post at Paizo. They want you to engage more with Gleemax.

I don't want to post at Gleemax. They'd own my words if I did.

Hey wait, if they claim copyright of anything I post there, are they liable for anything I post there? Hmm...

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I just can't see Wizards making this possible. I think they'll have a termination clause in the GSL that lets them go after companies that do this.

It's such an easy workaround (it only costs a few hundred dollars to form a company) that it would be universally employed if allowed. And Hasbro has full-time lawyers who surely know this.

So, if WoTC were going to make this possible, there would be no reason to have an exclusivity clause in the GSL at all. They would achieve the same end result, and a whole lot more goodwill, by just going without one.

Since they are going forward with one, I can only conclude that the GSL will be terminatable at will by them, and they plan on making it clear that that they intend to enforce the 4E only provision by threat of termination of the license.

Also, a lot of people seem to be counting on WoTC continuing to make their 3E catalog availbable via PDF. I think this is extremely unlikely; it doesn't make sense if they're trying to enforce system upgrade.

Ken

This is what I suspect will happen:

Company ACME has a 3e-type product called ADVENTURERS that is successful. They want to continue to publish expansions to ADVENTURERS, and they also want to do a 4e-type version.

The owners of ACME form a new company, called EMCA. ACME licenses ADVENTURERS to EMCA. EMCA stays with 3e, and publishes expansions to ADVENTURERS.

ACME creates a new product, which is similar to ADVENTURERS but not the same. It takes advantage of the new 4e system to go in a different direction, though at heart it has most of the feel of ADVENTURERS and is written by some of the same people and is marketed as "From the makers of ADVENTURERS". ACME calls this new product EXPLORERS.

From there on out, ACME goes with 4e, and continues to only publish products for 4e, while EMCA handles all 3e products, and continues to only publish products for 3e. The two companies do not call their products the same thing, or make them too similar, but similar enough to offer much of the same feel and the goodwill that comes with having some of the same writers and owners behind both companies.

I do not see why this would not work, given what we know right now. It is a bit of a pain, because you have to use two companies instead of one, and two administrative costs instead of one, and two marketing and promotional routes instead of one, and two settings instead of one, etc.. But ultimately, I think it could work. It might even get some people to buy both the 3e and 4e "versions" of the products since they are not identical and will have some significant differences. It might appeal to people who like the general feel and the quality of the writing but who might have two different gaming groups, or groups that might want to switch off between games depending on the type they are interested in playing at that time, or people who want to pillage new stuff from one game to use in their other game.

 

[Piratecat]

For reference, gang, we expect those interview results back in 2-4 days. Sorry for the delay; Scott is traveling, and they need him to go over the interview. We'll post it as soon as we get it back.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

thanks for the time estimate

 

[Henry]

I don't want to post at Gleemax. They'd own my words if I did.

Hey wait, if they claim copyright of anything I post there, are they liable for anything I post there? Hmm...

This keeps getting repeated, but I keep correcting it out of fairness:

They don't claim copyright of whatever you post at Gleemax -- you grant them a license to use it as they see fit, which isn't the same thing. Re-read the Terms of Service carefully.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

What is the difference between the two bolded sentences?

As I wrote them, not much. I chose my phrasing poorly.

A better way of stating it is that Valve will not let you use the Halflife Engine to make Half life 3.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[JohnSnow]

I just can't see Wizards making this possible. I think they'll have a termination clause in the GSL that lets them go after companies that do this.

It's such an easy workaround (it only costs a few hundred dollars to form a company) that it would be universally employed if allowed. And Hasbro has full-time lawyers who surely know this.

I agree. It's too easy a work-around. IANAL, but I've seen a lot of contracts. Most of them have a clause like:

"This applies to the company as well as any and all of its agents, successors, assigns, subsidiaries, sub-contractors, and independent contractors."

Which pretty much takes care of subsidiaries, but allows truly separate entities like Necromancer and the Game Mechanics (if they're still around) to have a publishing deal with Paizo or Green Ronin.

To me, that means that either the restriction won't exist, or there won't be an easy work-around like setting up a subsidiary.

 

[Orcus]

You should read the GSL thread in the OGL forum. If you publish a 4e book, you cannot use the OGL. If someone like Green Ronin wants to publish a 4e book, for example, then they cannot publish any new M&M or True20 books. You either publish 4e or OGL. You cannot do both.

This is Wizards poison pill for the OGL.

This mechanic of enforcement is not verified.

In my view, it would be most likely that if you use the GSL then use the OGL you cannot go back to the GSL. It is difficult for me to concieve of a way they could prevent you from going back to the OGL. That is open and limitless. But they could prevent you from again using the GSL.

In other words:

1. Use GSL to make a 4E product. fine.
2. Go back to OGL for a product. fine (though you likely triggered a clause that means you cant use the GSL)
3. Go back to the GSL to do another 4E product. Nope. Your use of teh OGL revokes your permission to use teh GSL. That is the simplest way.

Clark

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Since they are going forward with one, I can only conclude that the GSL will be terminatable at will by them, and they plan on making it clear that that they intend to enforce the 4E only provision by threat of termination of the license.

Also, a lot of people seem to be counting on WoTC continuing to make their 3E catalog availbable via PDF. I think this is extremely unlikely; it doesn't make sense if they're trying to enforce system upgrade.

Ken

I was a bit confused over this. I am nothing like a lawyer, but many posts seemed to be concerned with WotC suing someone for producing OGL & GSL products. I saw it more or less right away; revoke the GSL. No muss, no fuss, instant breach of contract/trademark violation.

It's not that WotC can prevent you from using the OGL, it's that they can revoke your use of the GSL. What the exact terms are is hard to say, but there is almost certainly an 'at will' clause for both parties.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Granted, I will too. I do believe the majority of 3e gamers will go to 4e. However, of the 3e gamers that I personally know and have spoken with, none are switching to 4e and neither are their groups. They don't like what they have read of 4e on WOTC or heard from others about some of the new mechanics. People in their groups are not interested nor are the people that they have talked to in thier extended gaming communities (e.g., LARP groups).

I know exactly what you mean.

Right now, based on current available info, 3.X is winning 13-0-2 over 4Ed in as the future for gaming in my current circles of gamers. The -2 are the people like me who are buying the Core and/or are taking a "wait and see" approach.

Granted, some of those might shift to wins for 4Ed when the thing finally becomes available, but knowing these guys as I do, I'm not holding my breath.

Then again, as I have griped on this site before, my current group is infamously conservative in their taste in RPGs.