GSL & software support for 3rd party publications

[kenmarable]

You have this all messed up, dude. There was supposed to be a Character Generator.

Jim butler(bishop?), mad with power, and the Fluid people, egged on by This board, began making plans for a rapidly expanding scope creep project. The "Interactive" part was denied and not publicized and violated various software agreements Hasbro has made. The outright failure of that product is no where near the likely failure mode of the DDI.

Ryan was the one who came in and started the process of gutting E-Tools from the increasingly ridiculous Master tools. The guy who was waxing about the do-anything program was jim B.

Byrt Martinez was the guy left holding the bag when JB was laid off.

I'd look up some facts before you claim others have history all wrong.

Master Tools in fact was planned to be a lot of what DDI will be (though definitely not all, no character visualizer, no magazines online). Here's a press release that was the first hit at Google for "Master Tools" and fluid.

I don't know if it was Jim Bishop "mad with power", but it certainly wasn't Jim Butler (I've met him and can't really picture him ever "mad with power") and I know Jim Butler was laid off and running Bastion Press very early in the 3e days (I first published with Bastion in early 2001, and the Master Tools fiasco was still imploding long into 2002).

The real train wreck was the "Dungeon Mapper" aspect. They sunk A LOT of effort into that (and not just egged on by messageboards, it was planned all along). I remember the beholder animations, and the giddiness they had over the sound effects - so it was not only well publicized, at the time it was largely the aspect they publicized the most. This press release and this post claim it didn't meet high enough standards, but also the deal with Hasbro and Infogrames (which happened AFTER Master Tools was well into development) is alluded to here as killing off the mapper. Putting it all together, it sounds like it was intended for internet use (just like the VTT), but the Hasbro/Infogrames deal killed that, so they tried repurposing it as just a table top mapping aid and it kinda stunk at that.

So, Master Tools was most certainly not just a Character Generator that had interactive portions added on at the behest of EN World. In fact, as I understand it, the original core of the VTT that they started with was from the aborted Master Tools Dungeon Mapper. That was one of the reasons for the Mac-only aspect was that they had existing DirectX engine to start with.

So, it's pretty clear that a large part of the DDI is what Master Tools was supposed to be 8 years ago. That view of history is not all messed up.

However, I agree that DDI probably won't follow the same track as Master Tools. Much more money behind it, no Hasbro deals gutting it, and so on. I'll admit that showing off how cool the Character Visualizer and Virtual Table Top are, while hardly demoing anything else sounds VERY reminiscent of the showing off of how cool the beholder animations were for Master Tools. It's hyping the showy stuff and not the real meat and potatoes. But I can understand that being a sexier demo than character generators and rule indexes. I just hope the nitty gritty, meat and potatoes useful tools are as far along as the showy visualizers (since I'll probably toy with the character visualizer, but I'm not really interested in paying for that - I want useful TOOLS even if they don't look sexy).

 

[Charwoman Gene]

I'd look up some facts before you claim others have history all wrong.

Master Tools in fact was planned to be a lot of what DDI will be (though definitely not all, no character visualizer, no magazines online). Here's a press release that was the first hit at Google for "Master Tools" and fluid.

Yes, but "Master Tools" took two years to get to that press release.

It was supposed to be a character generator. It was advertised to the public as such. Then the extra bits starting coming. The Dungeon Builder and Encounter Builder. We were promsided a program that would spit out an adventure module. Jim Bishop TOLD us it wouldn't be interactive. Then Dropped that it would, then the project crashed. Byrt Martinex took over when he left Wizards and started Bastion. There was a history. I freaking named myself after the bloody character generator.



Wait you said you want "useful tools" You must have been one of the Enworlders that caused E-Tool to look so terrible. "We want it to look like a boring database program"

 

[smetzger]

The Terms and Conditions of the GSLs are going to be similar to the current d20 STL. A couple key points found here and are likely to be included in the license (possibly in different language)

Will there be any specific language about how to designate open content?

For example one of the points debated heavily on the d20/OGL boards in the past was how a computer program could designate the open content inside its code.
The consensus reached was that only the human readable portion (e.g. that exposed in the UI) needed to be marked as open content.

Or will there even be any open content?

Will there be any specific language about PDFs? Or other electronic documents? Keep in mind that these documents are binary code, just like a compiled program.

Is the new license more restricting for computer programs than the current d20?

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Ranger REG]

Why?

It's hard to imagine how PCGen does not "describe the process of creating a character".

PC Gen D&D 4.0 FAQ
Q:How do I enter a character?
A:We can't tell you that.

Q:I want to level up my character. How do I do that?
A:It's a secret.

Remember, PCGen, HeroLab, etc, are all OGL products; they don't use the STL, for good reason.

Well, describing the process of creating a character is left in the PHB. What a software could do is tell what each function of buttons and switches do in the program. It's a tool, like a table saw. It shows you how to operate the saw, but not show you how to build a home theater furniture.

 

[ruemere]

Well, describing the process of creating a character is left in the PHB. What a software could do is tell what each function of buttons and switches do in the program. It's a tool, like a table saw. It shows you how to operate the saw, but not show you how to build a home theater furniture.

In order to preserve certain functionalities (like ability to calculate skill modifiers from character abilities) character generation software requires implementation of certain functions (or procedures, simple formulas may be not sufficient). Also, aspect of importing information from files could allow to import those functions from simple text, human readable files.

There is potential for reverse engineering aspects of character creation from this.
Of course, that would be cumbersome, and again, those files could be somewhat protected by copyrighting/licensing them (something like "suitable to use with GSL-licensed software only").

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[amethal]

Nope.

First, I posted that before you'd clarified the state of the development, or at least before I read it.

Second, it's an old, old, programming joke, not aimed at you personally. It states that the presence of video of a functioning system is not proof of the existence of a functioning system. (If you have never read about Microsoft's Windows 1.0 demo/announcement, do so. It's a riot.)

Third, I generally assume no representative of a corporation would be stupid enough to out-and-out lie in a public forum. If you say the system is almost good to go and will be live on June 6, I accept that is the truth as you currently see it. I may personally have trouble reconciling this with statements that the program was in alpha not very long ago (around December-January, IIRC), but you may have the most kick-ass dev team on the planet working for you. We'll see how it goes. My skepticism is based on the fact almost no software EVER ships on-time and feature-complete, and this is a pretty complex piece of software. If you pull it off, your coders and testers deserve the highest praise (and some nice bonus checks).

I guess there were no bonuses after all.

 

[Tewligan]

4/19/08:

From what I have seen we are way ahead of what was ever done for 3e.

We have a functioning Character Generator (both visual and char sheet), a map tool to build dungeons, and Game Table you can import your character & dungeon into and play D&D on with integrated VOIP.

6/7/08

As for the rest of the applications (Game Table, Character Builder, Character Creator), I'd say a safe bet is at least a few months from now, probably longer. Either way, we're very likely going to be rolling out one application at a time, to ensure as smooth and quality a launch as possible. Also take it as a given that each application will get roughly a "month-window" to launch in, meaning there would be at least a month in-between launches.

 

[nerfherder]

1) "How could Wizards not have D&D Insider ready for the launch of 4th edition?"

From the very beginning of this project our goal had been to launch the full suite of D&D Insider tools and applications with the launch of 4th edition. How could we want to do anything else?

But to mangle a quote from the Princess Bride -- "Software Development is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something." And for those of you who want to tell me how your company does software at perfect quality and on perfect schedule and budget -- thank you for sharing. I'm truly glad it is so easy for you. It makes me happy to know those stories exist.

Sarcasm from the manager responsible for the late delivery of software - that's a good sign...

<edit> rather than just be snarky here, I thought it only right to offer some constructive criticism on the original Gleemax thread that I quoted from. Unfortunately when I hit the quote button, I got this message "A technical error has occurred. Please close your browser and try again."

Doh!

 

[Propagandroid]

Sarcasm from the manager responsible for the late delivery of software - that's a good sign...

He's taking his cue from Brand!