D&D 5E (2014) [GUIDE] Arrive on Time - A General Guide to Wizardry

[Yunru]

What are your thoughts on a EK/Bladesinger with Sentinel, Warcaster and Greenfire/Booming Blade?

 

[NADRIGOL]

What are your thoughts on a EK/Bladesinger with Sentinel, Warcaster and Greenfire/Booming Blade?

I did some number work on the EK/BS multi-class possibilities, specifically where DPR and and the new cantrips are concerned... you can find it in the other wizard thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...o-Wizards-5e&p=6818344&viewfull=1#post6818344

tl;dr
Pure EK, Pure BS, and BS with a 1 lvl fighter dip all seem more viable than EK with a BS dip.

My personal favorite is Fighter 1 / BS X (assuming your DM lets human BS [for dual wielder]), which I'm currently playing out in my groups campaign. The DPR isn't far off pure EK, but with full spellcasting.

I've been thinking about sentinel a lot for this character. The benefits with the play style are obvious. However, I think the choice isn't as obvious. A BS only has five ASI's, four if you take a 2 lvl dip (which you might for action surge). You need four ASI's to max out Dex and Int. I think Warcaster is a must with any melee BS build, it just synergizes so well. Sentinel on the other hand, is more situational, and I think we can agree even as a BS, the wizard isn't going to be making as many OA's as the BSF. The effects of Booming Blade (usable as an OA with Warcaster) also duplicate some of the sentinel concepts. Even a Human BS I think would be better off using the extra feat for Dual Wielder, dipping Fighter for the fighting style, and using his ASI's for Dex, Int, and Warcaster.

Where Sentinel might work best I think, is on a party member in combo with your BS (sadly, I haven't been able to test this yet). I made a post in the forums a while ago presenting a Minotaur Battle Master focussed on ridiculous lockdown:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473074-Minotaur-Sentinel-Awesomeness

My concept was to have a BS striking at the enemies locked down around the minotaur, abusing static damage spells and forced movement. The BS and/or the minotaur could probably benefit from three levels in Swashbuckler in this combo, but I haven't thought the whole thing through yet. Might try to get the combo running someday if I have the opportunity.

 

[TheBigHouse]

I did some number work on the EK/BS multi-class possibilities, specifically where DPR and and the new cantrips are concerned... you can find it in the other wizard thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...o-Wizards-5e&p=6818344&viewfull=1#post6818344

tl;dr
Pure EK, Pure BS, and BS with a 1 lvl fighter dip all seem more viable than EK with a BS dip.

My personal favorite is Fighter 1 / BS X (assuming your DM lets human BS [for dual wielder]), which I'm currently playing out in my groups campaign. The DPR isn't far off pure EK, but with full spellcasting.

I've been thinking about sentinel a lot for this character. The benefits with the play style are obvious. However, I think the choice isn't as obvious. A BS only has five ASI's, four if you take a 2 lvl dip (which you might for action surge). You need four ASI's to max out Dex and Int. I think Warcaster is a must with any melee BS build, it just synergizes so well. Sentinel on the other hand, is more situational, and I think we can agree even as a BS, the wizard isn't going to be making as many OA's as the BSF. The effects of Booming Blade (usable as an OA with Warcaster) also duplicate some of the sentinel concepts. Even a Human BS I think would be better off using the extra feat for Dual Wielder, dipping Fighter for the fighting style, and using his ASI's for Dex, Int, and Warcaster.

Where Sentinel might work best I think, is on a party member in combo with your BS (sadly, I haven't been able to test this yet). I made a post in the forums a while ago presenting a Minotaur Battle Master focussed on ridiculous lockdown:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473074-Minotaur-Sentinel-Awesomeness

My concept was to have a BS striking at the enemies locked down around the minotaur, abusing static damage spells and forced movement. The BS and/or the minotaur could probably benefit from three levels in Swashbuckler in this combo, but I haven't thought the whole thing through yet. Might try to get the combo running someday if I have the opportunity.

Thanks for posting this link. I would like to include your post in the guide. I think it is very helpful for those looking at how to optimize bladesinger, which is kinda a tricky proposition. I think there might be some potential as well for EK8 BS2 and then something else (or more BS). To be honest it might be worth an entire guide just on bladesinger multiclassing.

 

[Yunru]

So you're saying a Greatsword wielder beats out a scimitar user? Colour me unimpressed. Now if you'd used similar builds, say a sword and board rapier user vs a mc bladeslinger vs a pure bladesinger, then the numbers might mean something.

 

[NADRIGOL]

Thanks for posting this link. I would like to include your post in the guide. I think it is very helpful for those looking at how to optimize bladesinger, which is kinda a tricky proposition. I think there might be some potential as well for EK8 BS2 and then something else (or more BS). To be honest it might be worth an entire guide just on bladesinger multiclassing.

Go for it! I think you're right about the possibility of a multiclassing guide... There are so many amazing multiclassing possibilities with BS (as with so many classes in 5e), it's usually not in your best interest to pure BS (especially given Signature Spell's relative weakness).

The EK8/BS2 build is essentially what I'm discussing with "George" in my other post. People get excited about the synergy potential with War Magic and BS and the new cantrips, but the combination of Two Weapon Fighting and Haste essentially render it null. Leaving the EK without much DPR advantage, and way behind on spells. If one could come up with a good reason not to dual wield with BS, but still be a melee focussed character, there might be a reason to EK7 BSX (probably EK7/8 BS2 something else [swashbuckler? paladin?]). The fact is BS is pretty much locked into Dex fighting, which encourages TWF, which is just not as good as Str for EK.

 

[TheBigHouse]

So you're saying a Greatsword wielder beats out a scimitar user? Colour me unimpressed. Now if you'd used similar builds, say a sword and board rapier user vs a mc bladeslinger vs a pure bladesinger, then the numbers might mean something.

Its hard to say what a similar build is in this case. The pure EK has much higher AC with plate than the singers do when they aren't using singing, but once the song starts, their AC goes higher than his. A rapier sword and board would do less damage, but have consistently very high AC and HP.

At that point you are comparing a really tanky character to two DPS characters with the ability to be tanky twice a day. I think he chose the greatsword because he wanted to compare 3 classes that are trying to achieve max dps within their paradigm.

 

[Yunru]

Tanky twice a rest you mean. Which is all day by the guidelines of the DMG.

 

[NADRIGOL]

So you're saying a Greatsword wielder beats out a scimitar user? Colour me unimpressed. Now if you'd used similar builds, say a sword and board rapier user vs a mc bladeslinger vs a pure bladesinger, then the numbers might mean something.

What I'm trying to say is that the BS dip for EK which many people are talking up, doesn't seem so great to me. I'm not using similar builds on purpose (I want to compare optimized EK, to optimzed BS, to the proposed BS2 EKX). I'm pointing out that by taking the BS dip, an EK gives up a lot of DPR and gains very little in exchange (little extra spellcasting, little higher AC potentially). With the right build and 1 lvl fighter dip, the BS can achieve nearly as high a DPR as the EK with BS dip (but has nearly full spellcasting, which compensates [with AC] for what he loses [HP]).

BS can't use shields, so I rarely consider sword and board in this conversation. Sword and Board pure EK is just a straight nerf with the new cantrips available, so I spared him the embarrassment.

Also all the math is rapiers, not scimitars.

 

[NADRIGOL]

Tanky twice a rest you mean. Which is all day by the guidelines of the DMG.

Very important. I think BS is OP in it's RAW state. If the fight isn't big enough, save your song and let the rest of the party do their thing. But honestly, I don't know what DM is planning to throw three or more high CR encounters at a party without a chance to short rest. As far as I'm concerned, my BS is always singing.

 

[TheBigHouse]

Go for it! I think you're right about the possibility of a multiclassing guide... There are so many amazing multiclassing possibilities with BS (as with so many classes in 5e), it's usually not in your best interest to pure BS (especially given Signature Spell's relative weakness).

The EK8/BS2 build is essentially what I'm discussing with "George" in my other post. People get excited about the synergy potential with War Magic and BS and the new cantrips, but the combination of Two Weapon Fighting and Haste essentially render it null. Leaving the EK without much DPR advantage, and way behind on spells. If one could come up with a good reason not to dual wield with BS, but still be a melee focussed character, there might be a reason to EK7 BSX (probably EK7/8 BS2 something else [swashbuckler? paladin?]). The fact is BS is pretty much locked into Dex fighting, which encourages TWF, which is just not as good as Str for EK.

Reading my mind... I know its kinda goofy but my idea was EK8/BS2/Swashbuckler8/Pali2 assuming you can get away with so much MC. You won't get haste but you can attack + GFB with sneak attack and smite, then use the swashbuckler feature to retreat to safety. The paladin levels might be wasted since you dont get that many smites, but if you are using GFB every round it at least gives you a way to turn your spell slots into damage.