Gunpowder, fantasy and you

[luckless]

I will happily accept a world without gun powder and explosives, but I will NOT accept "Its FANTASY! Guns don't fit in with all the other technology!" as an excuse.

If your setting has complex plate armour, long swords, etc, then you're right up there with gun powder weapons on Earth's Technological time scale. (No, really, go read some history of warfare text books. We had guns before head to toe suits of plate armour. Armour didn't disappear because of guns came around.)

Personally I enjoy firearms for Hail Marry weapons, and unique combat. High power hits with drawbacks: Failure, explosions, long reload times, smoke clouds. (Really, using a black powder weapon in a cave, after a few shots you now have limited visibility.)

As for "We have magic!" as a reason for lack of "Science", I don't really buy it. For the amount of effort that a mage has to go through to harness magical energies,... And the amount of alchemy we often see in fantasy worlds, do you really think the 'magic' to turn a pile of horse dung into a giant fire ball is going to go unnoticed for too long?

Magic is not a logical reason to avoid science unless magic allows 100% effortless actions to do anything. Otherwise people are going to look for an easier way to do something.

 

[renau1g]

I like them myself, it gives the laypeople a way to deal with monsters and magic that they normally would be helpless against. Then again, I love FR and the Gondsmen there who made said guns. I also don't have the "OMG they blow up" consequences. Essentially, they're like crossbows, except re-skinned. You can get silver bullets, cold iron bullets, etc., but the PC had to make them (finally a use for Craft). It gave them something to do during down time while spellcasters scribe scrolls, copied spells, brewed potions, made magic items, etc.

Here's an interesting analysis where they use the Flintlock Pistol, Blunderbuss, and Grenado (go to 20 minutes in for the Flintlock, which fails to penetrate the plate mail chest plate & Blunderbuss @ 25 min. which performs much better blowing through the chest plate.):

http://www.spike.com/full-episode/pirate-vs-knight/31860

 

[Sunseeker]

As for "We have magic!" as a reason for lack of "Science", I don't really buy it. For the amount of effort that a mage has to go through to harness magical energies,... And the amount of alchemy we often see in fantasy worlds, do you really think the 'magic' to turn a pile of horse dung into a giant fire ball is going to go unnoticed for too long?

Magic is not a logical reason to avoid science unless magic allows 100% effortless actions to do anything. Otherwise people are going to look for an easier way to do something.

That's my point though, science ISNT easy. It too years and years of trial and error from people around the world to get guns to even where we see them in their first incarnations as gigantic rocket-launcher-sized weapons in China. It takes education, study, and lots of people with expendable fingers.

In fact, mages would probably be the most likely people to develop guns as they are likely some of the most learned people around. Some farmer doesn't just go out into his field one day and come home with a rifle. And while guns do combust under the same principles as composting material, the mechanics are entirely different.

Science isn't easy, and the people who figure it out are likely people use use magic, which means they're going to continue to use magic to make science easier. Which means that instead of seismographs to look for fault lines they're going to scry the earth. Instead of remote tools to put things together they'll use summoned minions(like a mage hand). And instead of fire, they'll use some kind of magical orb to ignite the gunpowder.

Science struggled to battle "alchemy" for centuries because it was so complicated, diving the truth from rocks and chicken bones was actually easier.

 

[jonesy]

You! Shall not! Paaass!

Linky

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm fine with settings that say "Guns don't fit our milieu," but right now I'm writing the campaign guide for E.N. Publishing's next campaign setting, which does involve technology. Our premise is that one region got hit with a magical cataclysm, and latent energies in the area made spellcasting hazardous or impossible, so people there turned to earthly sciences to replace sorcery.

I figure eventually some mage is going to figure out, "Hey, I can make alchemical components that explode when mixed. If I put these under pressure, and give them only one way to move, I can shoot projectiles like a crossbow, maybe even faster. I wonder if the same principles apply to steam in a vessel. Hmmm."

 

[Mallus]

Generally speaking, I don't mind firearms in my D&D settings, though I'm more partial to having 'ancient high-tech' gear lying about. In for a flintlock, in for a laser pistol I always say (actually, I've never said that before).

In my group's current setting, most of the guns are the work of a mad artificer-priest who worships the God of Guns, the Juddering Manxome. Each weapon is made in His image, and each shot is literally a prayer. I suppose there are a few more mundane firearms around, but mostly black powder is used to manufacture bombs and fireworks, both of which are fairly easily gotten.

We don't bother, much, with attempts at logically extrapolating the effects of this, or any other technology, or magical technology on the setting. Sure, we bother a little... but it's usually done as a parody.

 

[Alzrius]

Personally, I've always liked how the Forgotten Realms handled the issue of guns/gunpowder.

There, gunpowder weapons are largely the invention of the church of Gond, which has a reputation for creating things that are wonderful and elaborate...and difficult to operate, oftentimes dangerous to the user, and can usually be replicated with either hard work and/or magic.

So yes, gunpowder weapons are out there, but if you really want to kill someone at a distance, a longbow works just as well as a rifle, and is generally less expensive, less loud, and less likely to blow up on you if it misfires.

Moreover, most governments make gunpowder and weapons based on it illegal, since they recognize the dangers it presents - not just in terms of explosive failures, but of how dangerous guns can be if they ever become widespread. Which, of course, means that there's a (comparatively small) black market out there for such things.

I think that's a great way to have firearms integrate into a high-fantasy world.

 

[Umbran]

If by fantasy you mean "pseudo-Euro-Medieval fantasy" then no.

If I've set my game in a pseudo-18th century, then perhaps there will be muskets. But probably not in a pseudo-14th century or earlier.

 

[Celebrim]

On the other hand, the one thing I won't ever countenance is the idiotic "because-it's-fantasy" handwave. As in:
A - "Gunpowder doesn't work in this world. You know, because it's fantasy."
B - "But if gunpowder doesn't work, then combustion and other basic laws of chemistry don't work, and so neither does metabolism, and, and..."

Woah there. Yes, combustion and the other basic laws of chemistry don't work. There are only four elements: fire, water, air, and earth. So, for example, if you perform a caloric test by grinding a cannon in bath of pure water, you will eventually reach the point where the grinding produces no further heat because the caloric (the fire element) will be gone or at least dispersed. Chemistry therefore works according to no laws that you understand. ZERO. Zilch. Your physics and chemistry knowledge is worthless. Now, does this mean that human metabolism doesn't work? No. It simply works according to other laws. On the main, these laws create a physical universe that largely resembles our own and which, in a superficial inspection, would appear identical. A close inspection however would reveal many startling differences of behavior (neither mass nor energy, for example, is conserved). Most obviously, magic works! A full treatis on how the physics and chemistry of this world works is not something I owe you. Producing such a magnum opus would probably be more than the work of a lifetime. When it is relevant to the campaign, your characters that have appropriate skills will be able to produce the appropriate technobabble and draw appropriate conclusions from the data they gather from a close observation. Otherwise, you may assume that your character certainly understands the world better than you do, and perhaps understands it better than even I (the worlds creator) could.

A - "But... it's fantasy!
B - "THAT'S NOT AN EXPLANATION!!!"

Yes, I'm afraid that it is.

 

[fanboy2000]

I'd say they're an optional, but compatible, element of fantasy. I haven't used black powder in a game in years. And I've never used guns.

The biggest problem with firearms isn't guns, muskets, or the like but barrels of gunpowder. If you introduce the gun, you also introduce 'put 100lbs of gunpowder under the problem and light a match'.

He he. The one time I used black powder in my games was for exactly that. The invading army had barrels of gunpowder, before they could light them though, the wizard blew them up accidentally. In retrospect, I should have seen that coming.

On the other hand, the one thing I won't ever countenance is the idiotic "because-it's-fantasy" handwave. As in:
A - "Gunpowder doesn't work in this world. You know, because it's fantasy."
B - "But if gunpowder doesn't work, then combustion and other basic laws of chemistry don't work, and so neither does metabolism, and, and..."

This seem kind of disingenuous, given that fantasy setting regularly break the laws of physics as we understand them. Take the second law of thermodynamics, fireball breaks it. Many, many, 5th level wizards take it and use it, but where does the fire come from? Where does the energy come from? We don't have to answer these questions because it's magic, it's supposed to break the laws of physics.

The same goes for Magic Missile. What is it made of? Force isn't a material. Also, where does the material come from? Where does it go? Are the dungeons littered with Magic Missiles? Does force decompose?

I had a player who wanted to use the 3.5 version of Passwall to make a cannon. (This was theoretical, he wasn't trying this in-game.) I told him that in a world where you can create and destroy energy and mass is likely to have very different set of Laws of Physics.