Guns and Deafening

[Alishea]

So we started a new campaign and the DM is new, this is his first time DMing. Our characters were in a crypt that was approx. 15x60ft, it was all etched stone.

One of the char is a gunslinger, this is the first time we've had guns in any campaign so we were all new to this. He fired the gun in that small stone space. The DM ruled that it wouldn't be loud enough to deafen us. But when we were in the end of the session where we talk about what we liked/wanted changed. I told him that I think it would actually deafen the characters (I've fired a gun without ear protection before and they are very loud). At second thought, he agreed. But none of us could figure out/find any good rules for this.

So what rules would you implement? We are worried about unintentionally gimping the gunslinger, but it has to be realistic at the same time.

 

[Henry]

If your group is very concerned with realism, while you're on the subject be sure to discuss attack roll penalties to represent split knuckles on near-hits to gauntlet-wearing characters, or internal bruising on chain-shirt-wearing PCs when the enemy misses by one AC point; be sure to include the deafened condition from hearing metal clash on metal in the same close quarters, or penalties to AC for every day the PC's armor goes without good oiling and cleaning. For that matter, make it impossible for anyone wearing anything heavier than chain mail to be able to mount a horse quickly, and strictly enforce dehydration rules for characters in full plate above room temperature.

I'm being facetious, but my point stands -- in my experience it's gamers' familiarity with guns and gunpowder, but not with the realities of pre-gunpowder era combat, that causes people to try to emulate the realities of one while totally ignoring the other. My suggestion would be to ignore totally simulationist house rules unless the whole group is on board, because in my experience they generally detract from play instead of adding anything good to it. Cauterizing a bleeding wound with only one shot causing a hot gun barrel isn't exactly realistic, but it's very cool for dramatic effect.

On the other hand, watching enemy spellcasters get deafened by a gun-happy gunslinger might be a valid battle-tactic. If there isn't a grit stunt already like this, it would be totally worth creating one.

 

[Alishea]

My suggestion would be to ignore totally simulationist house rules unless the whole group is on board, because in my experience they generally detract from play instead of adding anything good to it. Cauterizing a bleeding wound with only one shot causing a hot gun barrel isn't exactly realistic, but it's very cool for dramatic effect.

On the other hand, watching enemy spellcasters get deafened by a gun-happy gunslinger might be a valid battle-tactic. If there isn't a grit stunt already like this, it would be totally worth creating one.

The entire group thinks that this should be implemented. It wasn't a "should we or shouldn't we?" thing. More of a "what can we do that would make sense thing?".

How long would they be deafened for? Would magical healing help it? etc etc.

 

[SSuser]

Your cries fall on deaf ears.

I've fired numerous guns, including black powder muskets, mini-cannons, as well as modern firearms. I have never used ear protection, nor do I suffer any hearing loss. Being in a small stone room would most likely modify the sound, but not deafen anyone.

I'm all for house rules that add to the groups' entertainment. I really don't think imposing this rule on the gunslinger will increase anyone's fun. At most it will add surrealism, while singling out any character that uses firearms.

If you feel you must add something, try it in small steps. Impose a -2 penalty to perception checks made by anyone within 5' of a fired gun. Give them a save vs fortitude. Duration on the -2 penalty is one round.

 

[Alishea]

I've fired numerous guns, including black powder muskets, mini-cannons, as well as modern firearms. I have never used ear protection, nor do I suffer any hearing loss. Being in a small stone room would most likely modify the sound, but not deafen anyone.

If you feel you must add something, try it in small steps. Impose a -2 penalty to perception checks made by anyone within 5' of a fired gun. Give them a save vs fortitude. Duration on the -2 penalty is one round.

Hm, maybe this is where we are having the issue. I have never fired anything musketesque, only semiautomatics in a small space and they were quite loud even with ear protection. So maybe the older guns were just quieter?

 

[Madeiner]

I advise against putting a rule there, even in small steps.
Even if is is a -2 to perception on the round after firing the gun vs a fort save.

Would you REALLY want to roll fort save EVERY TIME the gunslinger shoots in a dungeon? To save against a -2 to perception? I'd say, give me the -2, i fail intentionally, but i dont want to roll every time.

It's just a bad rule, takes time to apply and really accomplishes nothing.

Instead, try to err more on the roleplaying side.
When the pistol jams, you may ask for a save or get that -2 for 30 minutes. Only once in a session maybe.
When the Pc's fail some perception roll, tell them that "maybe the gunfire from before has weakened your hearing sense". D

 

[Henry]

Hm, maybe this is where we are having the issue. I have never fired anything musketesque, only semiautomatics in a small space and they were quite loud even with ear protection. So maybe the older guns were just quieter?

How Loud Are Black Powder Rifles & Muzzle Loaders? - Shooters Forum

Deaf Today v3.0: George Washington Elected to the Hard of Hearing Hall of Fame

This topic has actually led me to some interesting places. The big thing I'm getting is that black powder definitely has more of a "BOOM" than the high-pitched crack we're used to from firing modern "smokeless powder" -- I believe I read somewhere that black powder has a lower deflagration speed or whatever it's called than smokeless powder. No less quiet, but more resonant.

I definitely think one really cool "Deed" to add to the gunslinger's list to spend grit on would be something like:

Muzzle Blast: (Ex) A gunslinger with at least 1 grit point, as a full-round action, may fire her firearm in close proximity to an adjacent target's ears or other auditory organs. The gunslinger may also use this shot to attack a secondary target who is receiving cover against her from the first target. The first target must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the gunslinger's level + the gunslinger's dex bonus) or suffer the deafened condition for 1 hour.

I have no idea what level such a thing would need to be - 3rd or 7th, perhaps?

 

[paradox42]

Muzzle Blast: (Ex) A gunslinger with at least 1 grit point, as a full-round action, may fire her firearm in close proximity to an adjacent target's ears or other auditory organs. The gunslinger may also use this shot to attack a secondary target who is receiving cover against her from the first target. The first target must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the gunslinger's level + the gunslinger's dex bonus) or suffer the deafened condition for 1 hour.

I have no idea what level such a thing would need to be - 3rd or 7th, perhaps?

I'll certainly add this to the house rules for my setting's Gunslinger.

I'd advise 3rd, since the basis for the Deed is the real physical nature of the black powder itself- presumably it could be done (in the sense of a real action) at 1st level, but might be too powerful that low. Contrast this with the fact that the Deafened condition isn't very debilitating (or tactically useful to put onto an enemy) around about 10th, and you have a range of levels for putting this Deed in place.

 

[Alishea]

How Loud Are Black Powder Rifles & Muzzle Loaders? - Shooters Forum

Deaf Today v3.0: George Washington Elected to the Hard of Hearing Hall of Fame

This topic has actually led me to some interesting places. The big thing I'm getting is that black powder definitely has more of a "BOOM" than the high-pitched crack we're used to from firing modern "smokeless powder" -- I believe I read somewhere that black powder has a lower deflagration speed or whatever it's called than smokeless powder. No less quiet, but more resonant.

I definitely think one really cool "Deed" to add to the gunslinger's list to spend grit on would be something like:

Muzzle Blast: (Ex) A gunslinger with at least 1 grit point, as a full-round action, may fire her firearm in close proximity to an adjacent target's ears or other auditory organs. The gunslinger may also use this shot to attack a secondary target who is receiving cover against her from the first target. The first target must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the gunslinger's level + the gunslinger's dex bonus) or suffer the deafened condition for 1 hour.

I have no idea what level such a thing would need to be - 3rd or 7th, perhaps?

You sir, are a pimp among men!! This is fantastic and I will be relaying it to the DM for a final verdict. It adds a lot of flavor to the gunslinger and since our gunslinger will be a spell slinger in the end, it gives him something to use until he gets to that point. And the articles were quite interesting. I appreciate your help!!

 

[Henry]

I'll certainly add this to the house rules for my setting's Gunslinger.

Glad it sounds useful. I've actually accidentally done this in real life to a friend of mine when I was on a hunting trip when I was in my teens. I was tracking a (dove, I think?) with a 20-gauge, and BOOM! -- BOOM! -- BOOM! and the third one was with the barrel about two feet from his head. He was OK, but it taught me a heck of a lot about gun safety and environmental awareness, but that's topic for a different forum. It also taught me that it would be... distracting, to say the least, on a battlefield.

You sir, are a pimp among men!! This is fantastic and I will be relaying it to the DM for a final verdict. It adds a lot of flavor to the gunslinger and since our gunslinger will be a spell slinger in the end, it gives him something to use until he gets to that point. And the articles were quite interesting. I appreciate your help!!

Glad it was helpful, and if you don't mind, I might now have a new sig-quote.