Guns in a fantasy setting

[The Little Raven]

Shouldn't that be Ranger (or rather, Rangers get a rifle/musket/generic longarm feat, and Rogues get a pistol feat)?

Rangers can use all their ranged powers with all ranged weapons, so there's no need for a feat for them and pistols (aside from a Weapon Proficiency feat).

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I always liked Arcanum's approch, where technology and magic were complete opposite that cancelled each other out. Where technology actively uses the laws of nature to create it's effects, magic bends and breaks those same laws for theirs. So when technology rises in the world, magic weakens. And inevitably, the opposite happens, as technology slowly begins to fade and magic takes the lead. A mage has to ride in the caboose of a train so as not to cause the engine to violently malfunction. Also, while magic is certainly incredibly powerful and can do things technology can't and could never do, technology can be mass produced.

Plus, you get elves on zeppelins and dwarves with crude flamethrowers. Tell me this isn't incredibly awesome.

 

[Korgoth]

If guns are applied realistically to the setting, I do not have a big problem with them.

The problem is that medieval-era firearms were very slow to load and inaccurate beyond short range. The main effect was the fear factor from the smoke and the loud noise, which would often scare horses. They were powerful at short-range, but would often not be able to penetrate plate armor at longer ranges.

Firearms were around in the medieval era, but a medieval-era harquebus (or earlier handgun) took a good two minutes to reload, far slower than a crossbow. The effectiveness of medieval-era firearms only came about when they were used in massed groups where rows of harquebusiers would take turns firing while the other rows reloaded.

The revolution of firearms in the early years was that they were far easier to mass produce than bows & arrows and that it was easier to carry around gunpowder and 100 bullets than carrying around a quiver of 20 arrows or crossbow bolts.

Unfortunately, most of the firearms rules for D&D I have seen seemingly make firearms into something that was more like rifles & pistols from the American Civil War era instead of 500 years earlier when guns were something new to Europe and the Middle East. That is not really fair when the rest of the game is based on a fantasy Medieval Europe around 1300AD, give or take 100 years.

Even Civil War era guns were single-shot and took time to reload.

Sure, if you want to use firearms, that is fine, but give them the 20 round reload time that is maybe able to cut down to less time with various feats.

Good post!

To reasonably represent firearms in D&D, they should be impractical to reload during combat (but they are good in protracted battles because you can carry more ammo). I think a 20 round reload counter is a good idea. They should deal big damage at close range but be almost impossible to hit with beyond that.

Since we're really talking matchlock here, they maybe should take 2 round to fire: 1 round to light the match and ready the weapon, and then the second round to fire. Still, they'd be pretty good fire-and-forget weapons to open up a melee.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Unfortunately, most of the firearms rules for D&D I have seen seemingly make firearms into something that was more like rifles & pistols from the American Civil War era instead of 500 years earlier when guns were something new to Europe and the Middle East. That is not really fair when the rest of the game is based on a fantasy Medieval Europe around 1300AD, give or take 100 years.

I'm trying to depict a game from the 18th to 19th century, so of course I'm trying to make pistols and rifles like they were in the American Civil War.

 

[Jadeite]

Good post!

To reasonably represent firearms in D&D, they should be impractical to reload during combat (but they are good in protracted battles because you can carry more ammo). I think a 20 round reload counter is a good idea.

But crossbows also took much more time to reload than 6 seconds.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I've never understood the whole "Guns should do 12d42 +97" meme that often intrudes on these discussions.

That really should only be if the gun shoots katanae or lightsabers.

Brad

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

An ordinary cannon would have one significant advantage over a spellcaster... Range.

Well, more than that- its kind of like a spell completion item that has metamagic feats built in.

Depending upon how you fire it, a cannonball could either affect one space (a high lob) or a line effect (firing it level against massed troop on an open field).

It can be loaded with various shots: ball, explosive/incendiary, chain or grape. In addition to the above comment on trajectory, explosive rounds obviously works like the explosive metamagic feat, chain would work like a wide line effect, and grapeshot like a cone effect.

 

[The_Universe]

The last time I used guns in D&D, they were exceptionally rare items that could only be accessed by certain trusted classes within the main kingdom where the campaign took place. The secret of gunpowder had been discovered millenia earlier, and then ruthlessly controlled in order to prevent widespread use from destabilizing the ruling class (although there are a number of cogent arguments to suggest that gunpowder weapons in and of themselves are not enough to destabilize a society, the king felt differently and acted accordingly).

As such, they became the tools of a highly trained and closely managed cabal of traveling justicars in the service of this kingdom, and a few units of the king's private guard. If you weren't one of these people and were found to be using a "steeldrake" as they were called during the campaign, you were hunted down and killed. Period.

This did not prevent a black market from arising, mostly fed by greedy dwarven smiths and cunning gnomish alchemists.

The players ended up as rebels, anyway, being hunted by the king for several other reasons. As such, several of them took to carrying a pistol or two, since they were probably going to be put to death on sight, anyway.

At the same time, there was a significant reason for the average person to be a little more wary about using the weapons, so it kept the overall fantasy feel intact.

It worked very well for me, but it's been several years since that campaign wrapped up.

 

[Pbartender]

Shouldn't that be Ranger (or rather, Rangers get a rifle/musket/generic longarm feat, and Rogues get a pistol feat)?

Rangers can use all their ranged powers with all ranged weapons, so there's no need for a feat for them and pistols (aside from a Weapon Proficiency feat).

Exactly.

Rogues have a lot of nifty powers that require a "crossbow, a light blade, or a sling". This feat allows rogues to use firearms (both pistols and muskets) with all those powers as well.

 

[NewJeffCT]

But crossbows also took much more time to reload than 6 seconds.

That is true - a heavy crossbow often took upwards of a minute to reload. However, that is still half the time of the best medieval-era guns.

Since I know next to nothing about 4E (let alone 4E crossbows), I can only speak to 3E/3.5 where one would need the Rapid Reload feat to improve crossbow firing time.

For the historical one-minute to reload heavy crossbow, that would still make it a move action to rapidly reload a heavy crossbow, which essentially makes it a move or fire weapon. Quicker than actual, but it makes the heavy crossbow playable in game.

Using that as a base, I would make the equivalent Rapid Reload feat to reload a harquebus as one round, plus a move action (again, using 3.5 rules) – otherwise, it is a two round action.

(Of course, that would work in 1E and 2E, since the rounds were one minute long!)

I am not sure what I would use for a base damage, but I would use a 60 foot range increment, with an additional +1 to hit for point blank range, and plus d4 or d6 damage within that first 60’ range increment. Beyond that, I would have each range increment be -3 or -4 to hit, instead of the normal -2. And, then a -2 to damage beyond 120 feet.