D&D 3E/3.5 gunslinger 3.75 vs ranger 3.5 who's the best gunner?

[gwyllgi]

I've been looking and the paizo's gunslinger seems to be a massive disappointment in the gunfight area of it's job description. it seems to me like it might have been a great prestige class but not anything else. so far i gather the ranger could do better than gunslinger at gunslinging.

anyone got a definitive yes or no, and possibly some other classes and class mixes that might help?

 

[Dandu]

One dip in the Fighter for the Hit and Run ACF gives your Dex mod in Precision damage on all targets within 30 feet if you catch them flatfooted, along with a +2 to initiative.

Three levels in Swashbuckler grants Int to damage, though Int isn't exactly a primary stat for a Ranger.

Rogue compliments Ranger, as they get Sneak Attack and access to the Craven feat, which adds his character level to Sneak Attack damage.

 

[gwyllgi]

i didn't know that about swash and stuff, it's good because i gestalt all the time and it will work well with artificer.

anything to help a heavy armored gunner?

 

[emoplato]

i didn't know that about swash and stuff, it's good because i gestalt all the time and it will work well with artificer.

anything to help a heavy armored gunner?

If you want heavy armor than you need to get off of dexterity, as mythril heavy armor+ other abilities maybe at best would allow +3 to +4 bonus. Zen Archery allows for wisdom to be used in ranged attacks for accuracy instead of dexterity. Also, what kind of archery are you hoping to use?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Are both using Pathfinder's complete bat**** insane broken ass rules for guns, or only the gunslinger?

Do both have access to all of 3E and PF rules content?

 

[gwyllgi]

open to all sources of good standing, and which of the rules do you speak.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The rule where guns get to go, "haha, full attack touch AC all day long, mother-****ers!" Or the thing where "scatter" weapons shoot a whole bunch of times in a freaking cone and it only misses if all shots miss. Or the thing where the rate of fire of the guns was made drastically different depending on how "advanced" guns are in the campaign and then leaving that decision up to the whim of DM fiat? Hmm..guess I'd better give my DM a little test to see how awesome he thinks guns are, lest I mistakenly make a sword or bow user and actually expect to not feel useless.

(PF "balances" this by making guns randomly explode -- so, until it happens, they rape all, then it explodes and you cry. The Russian Roullette style of game balance, awesome!)

 

[Dozen]

haha, full attack touch AC all day long, mother-****ers!

I agree, Touch attacks used for guns is pretty dumb rule. And unrealistic, as well. Bullets from a handgun would pounce off of a plate armor like pebbles. I homebrewed the following to balance it:

When firing a firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first (five, if modern) range increment(s) of the weapon if the weapon's maximum damage dealt is higher than the hardness of the target's armor.

So muskets penetrate all armor like they did in real life, while the rest penetrate leather, padded, sometimes wood, and the hardness increase of a +1 magic steel armor damps even musket shots, unless the musket is a +1 or better.

Or the thing where "scatter" weapons shoot a whole bunch of times in a freaking cone and it only misses if all shots miss.

Pretty much how it works IRL.

Or the thing where the rate of fire of the guns was made drastically different depending on how "advanced" guns are in the campaign...

Same as above.

 

[gwyllgi]

realistically, it would depend if the armor was made specifically for stopping bullets and how good the guns was, I read occurrences of crappy pre-industrial russian rifles bouncing off inuit wood armor, ottoman and dutch musket balls falling flat after hitting Maasai cowhide shields, and worst of all in armor's favor oriental paper armor that stops any projectile up to tanegashima bullets. guns should be done on a fallout 1,2 and NV note and have them have to over come AC with every additional +1 counting as 5 AC and every five levels of +1 increasing by 2 like so.
+1=5
+2=6
+3=7
+4=8
+5=10
+6=12
+7=14
+8=16
+9=18
+10=24
+11=28
+12=32
+13=36
+14=40
+15=46

this gives gun huge advantages against weaker opponents as it should while protecting the players as they invest money in better armor from being messed up by a bunch of handgonne wielding goblins even though they have good armor, further more i would implement a Proofing price added on like the spike price that ads a 50% chance that the bullet does half damage even if it hits.

anyways...

i wanted to know because i was planning on being this artificer magitek gunner and when i reach epic i plan on making really really suped up mithril clockwork armor with maug stone spitters on it, and it's gonna be smart and slay 50 minutes and day and when i land to fight AC/DC will start playing.

 

[Dozen]

realistically, it would depend if the armor was made specifically for stopping bullets and how good the guns was

I don't understand your meaning. That's how it works now. Naturally, anti-bullet armor should recieve bonuses against guns and crappy guns should recieve a fitting penalty to their stats. Besides, how is the magical bonus increase supposed to symbolize how good the armor is against bullets? Granted, magical armor does better, but in your example there were completely mundane armor and shields. They didn't have enchantments on them, they simply either were gunproof or the guns used against them were subpar. Enchantments and modifications on an item are separate. You could have a magically enchanted(+1, if you prefer), mundanely gunproof shield, for instance.

guns should be done on a fallout 1,2 and NV note and have them have to over come AC with every additional +1 counting as 5 AC and every five levels of +1 increasing by 2 like so.

Overcoming AC in this case doesn't make sense under D&D rules. Think about it. A tower shield gives the most AC out of all shields, and it's made of wood. Small shields and Heavy shields give the same AC bonus each no matter what they're made of. AC bonus from shields and armor are based on how well it protects your body from attacks it CAN wade off, not the material. It's not a stat of the equipment, it's a bonus you get from it. When it comes to penetrating armor(that is, something you do to the armor itself, not the wearer), it's bonus to AC doesn't matter in the slightest.
A Tower Shield is big, hence it defends you more than a buckler, even though bucklers are made of steel. A proper gun would still penetrate it like a sheet of paper because it's still just wood, not some kind of special, famed tower shield wood which somehow gives more AC than the other kinds of wood.