GURPS-Share your thoughts

[Jürgen Hubert]

I raise you Synnibar.

I fold.

Have you actually played Synnibar?

 

[billd91]

Yes it does (See? You're calculating percentages again. Stop that. )

If you're attempting something while you're subject to some kind of penalty, when does that penalty matter most? The person with really high skill isn't really going to care - he'll succeed anyway. The person with a really poor skill isn't really going to care either - he'll probably fail anyway. But for the person who only has a 50-50 chance of succeeding to begin with, that -2 penalty can make all the difference.

Let's turn the situation around: Say you're an archer with one +2 arrow left, in a quiver full of normal arrows. When should you decide to use that last +2 arrow during the course of a combat? D&D would tell you "Fire it at any time. Doesn't matter what your chances of hitting are, the +2 gives you an even 10% higher chance, translating in a fixed average increase in damage." GURPS on the other hand would tell you "Better wait for a good opportunity to use that arrow. Don't waste it on shots which you'll probably fail anyway, or on ones you are likely to make even without the +2. Instead, use it when you think the extra +2 might be just enough to put you over the edge".

Which one sounds more intuitive to you?

The trouble here is, these situations and how they should be approached are exactly the same. In both cases, there's only one +2 arrow so there's no fixed average increase in damage. That would only occur if there are multiple +2 arrows to be shot. And in this situation, multiple +2 arrows indicates a calculatable average increase in damage for both systems. It's just that the D&D system, it's easier to calculate. With only one +2 arrow, the archer in either system is well advised to use it when it is most needed.

Note that I'm not really advocating that D&D is better because it's easier to calculate the effect of penalties nor am I suggesting a player should approach the game like that. I'm thinking more along the direction of a DM trying to predict how the elements they put in an adventure or the penalties they asign (particularly on the fly while playing) will affect the PCs and the tasks they have to perform.

Now, your explanation about how a penalty hurts the guy with some minor competence would help in that regard. But I seriously doubt that a penalty that affects characters in different ways is more intuitable for most players or DMs, especially those relatively new to the system.

 

[billd91]

I would concede that a 3d6 task roll is reasonably intuitive if you spin it like this:

Most of your attempts to achieve a success at something tend to be relatively average attempts at the task. It's really only particularly exceptional attempts, either good or bad, that reach either end of the range.

THAT is reasonably intuitive, but I still think the mechanics of modifying that task attempt with bonuses or penalties is not. And that's generally why I prefer to roll a flat probability for task attempts, mechanical ease.

Fun discussion, though.

 

[mmu1]

You find it MORE intuitive that a -2 on the check affects a character whose target number is 12 significantly more (effectively -24%) than a character whose target number is 16 (effectively -8%) compared to a -2 giving all characters a -10% lower chance of success?

I find that curious.

A -2 in D&D is also weighed differently depending on the level of skill. If you hit on 11+, it reduces your chances of success by 20%. If you only hit on 18+, if reduces your chances of success by 66%. It hardly matters at really low or really high skill, just like in GURPS...

So much for intuitiveness.

 

[Conaill]

The trouble here is, these situations and how they should be approached are exactly the same. In both cases, there's only one +2 arrow so there's no fixed average increase in damage.

Fine - expected increase in damage.

In D&D, the expected increase in damage from a +2 arrow is independent of your chance to hit in the first place (provided you stay within the 1-20 range). In GURPS, the expected increase in damage will be highest if your chance to hit is 50% and drops off both for harder and easier shots. WHereas teh first seems more elegant on paper, in practice the second is actually more intuitive because it corresponds better with the real world. "Don't waste your ammo on *that* shot - wait for a good opportunity to use that +2 arrow, it's your last one!"

 

[Jim Hague]

What surprises me in all this is that people are bothering to calculate percentages for success. There's very, very few ways a characters would know this in all but the most general and nebulous way...why sit there and play the numbers game when you could be roleplaying the encounter, whatever it may be? Isn't that called metagaming and generally frowned upon?

 

[Conaill]

What surprises me in all this is that people are bothering to calculate percentages for success. There's very, very few ways a characters would know this in all but the most general and nebulous way...why sit there and play the numbers game when you could be roleplaying the encounter, whatever it may be? Isn't that called metagaming and generally frowned upon?

Yup. That doesn't stop people from calculating their optimal amount of Power Attack to maximize expected damage output though. Heck, I believe there was even a seminar on that at Gencon a few years ago...

 

[Jim Hague]

Yup. That doesn't stop people from calculating their optimal amount of Power Attack to maximize expected damage output though. Heck, I believe there was even a seminar on that at Gencon a few years ago...

Oh, I know - I had a player (imagine the half-ogre fighter with spiked chain from that Order of the Stick strip, but make him a psi-warrior Polymorphed into a troll) that did exactly that. It's an attitude that's just incomprehensible to me. I mean, if someone's having fun doing it, great...but IME it's more often someone that's either trying to gain what amounts to a metagame advantage, or that views the game as a competition between GM and players. And in both cases, that's not a Good Thing.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I fold.

Have you actually played Synnibar?

Remember, you folded!








I've heard the legends, as we all have.

But no, of course not. I'm not rich enough or stupid enough (poor, non-working college student) to waste money on a novelty item like Synnibar.

 

[tetsujin28]

Of course, I just want to use it for contemporary horror campaigns, so the myriad books aren't of much interest to me, neither are the myriad Pyramid sample articles (use the search function, lots of good stuff there, even for my limited wants) dealing with GURPS Fantasy and GURPS Black Ops and GURPS whatever.

There really are a lot of supplements you should consider if you're going to be doing contemporary horror: GURPS Horror, Spirits, Voodoo, and Cabal are all excellent. You might also want to take a look at the two volumes of Suppressed Transmission.