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Gurps? Where do I start?

DungeonMaester said:
1) Unlike D&D Gurps gets bad fast at high level? I hate Epic level D&D camapign. Its Nothing more then a pissing contest for who character is the most powerful.
No no - in fact the exact opposite. What I said was " even at high level GURPS is deadly."

Your hit points don't scale with experience points unless you specifically buy up your health to make yourself able to survive more damage - this is a complete opposite of how it operates in d20 systems where you get extra hp for free essentially. Which means a gun to a character built on 100 points is *just* as nasty to one built on 200 or 300 if the higher point ("higher level" so to speak) character didn't buy extra health. Most players won't buy the health as they'd rather have a nifty power instead....

In gurps combat is designed to be gritty. If you don't want people to have a good chance of dying from a single gut shot (for example, as they would in real life) you'll need to make modifications to the rules - or more likely - just give every PC and NPC some advantage for free that makes them able to shrug off damage - such as Hard to Kill, or a GM house rule advantage in which you declare each character to have triple the HP that the rules would calculate their character as having.

Given that your players are outright rejecting anything not d20 - I suspect you need to find out *why* they're doing that. No matter how much you pretty up gurps - it's not d20 and never will be. Ask them what they're looking for in a system - and make them pin it down to something more measurable than simply "We want you to run D&D like you always have." Mere familiarity is not a good enough reason. Once you know what they're looking for it may make the system shopping a little easier.

One of the things that may be an advantage for you and your players is that the system for gurps is built on a 3d6 roll - which forms a darned near perfect bell curve. That makes it a lot easier for you and players to have a good idea if they're going to make a skill check or not. You as gm will be able to avoid killing them when you don't want to, and they as players are far less vulnerable to the 'bad dice curse'. It's more predictable than a d20 roll where anything from a 1 to a 20 is a possibility at any given moment.
 
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Clueless said:
No no - in fact the exact opposite. What I said was " even at high level GURPS is deadly."
Yes, GURPS combat is "realistic" meaning any sane individual avoids combat if they value life and limb.

For this reason I actually suggest HERO over GURPS. It can be less deadly. Problem with HERO is, it is an even bigger DIY system. Although 5th ed does have a lot more prebuilt options than older editions did. But you have to buy them separately. Fantasy HERO magic can be a simple as D&D magic whereas GURPS Magic is rather limited in my experience.
 


DungeonMaester said:
I am looking to get into gurps, deciding to take a break from D&D from after 15+ years of playing.

I chose gurps because I all ready failed to get my players into Palladuim, Throwing Stones, and WoD. Its a last ditch effort, where do I begin?

By downloading GURPS Lite and printing it out for each of your players. That should provide a starting point.

Run an adventure with just these rules, and see if they like it. If you are planning on running a fantasy game, they could create 25 point characters in some remote village that encounter some sort of monsters (a zombie plague, perhaps?) and try to survive through it. Limiting these characters to 25 points should make the players familiar with character creation without too much effort, and having such characters face monsters will make them familiar with the combat system before they design their real characters. (The real characters then can come and investigate the village later on...)

For running a campaign, you should get the two-volume Basic Set. The first book is almost completely about character creation, and you can create pretty much any character with these rules. However, so much freedom can be overwhelming, especially to first-time players. Thus, you need to establish some ground rules.

First of all, remind them that you have final approval over any character concept. If they object, tell them: "There is nothing in the GURPS rules that prevent you from purchasing Social Status 7 and creating the President of the United States as a player character, but that doesn't mean such a character will be appropriate for most campaigns." That should hopefully do the trick. Don't approve SF characters (with future weaponry) in fantasy campaigns just because they are theoretically possible under the rules.

Go through the lists of advantages, disadvantages, and skills. Decide which are appropriate for your campaign, and which aren't - and give the players a list with the appropriate ones.



You don't really need additional books - the Basic Set is perfectly serviceable for campaigns, especially if you have an existing setting to draw upon (you can use GURPS for pretty much any published setting - for example, I have used it with Eberron, and you can see my conversion file here. But several other books might be of interest to you:

- GURPS Magic: If the spell list in the Basic Set is insufficient for your tastes, buy this book to get several hundred additional spells.

- GURPS Fantasy: Has generic campaign advice for fantasy world-building and campaigns, and quite a few racial templates, including most of the "standard" fantasy races. You don't really need them to - as long as you know what kinds of abilities your PC races are supposed to have, you can stat them with the Basic Set and calculate their point totals - but it does save some time.

- GURPS Powers: If you want to come up with customized supernatural abilities, this is the book for you. There aren't actually all that many new rules in it when compared to the Basic Set, but it provides so many clear explanations and worked examples that you will find that this is the GURPS book you never knew you had wanted your entire life. You can create entire new magic systems in a matter of minutes, from demon-summoners who require lengthy ritual preparations to psionicists who work their powers with their mind alone, from Earth priests who need to be in contact with the naked earth to shape their element to paladins who are protected by their god as long as they adhere to their code of honor. This book is by no means mandatory, but so brilliant that you'll want it nonetheless if you can afford it and your campaign goes underway.

- GURPS Banestorm: A fantasy world that has most of the standard tropes - magic, the usual bunch of nonhumans and monsters, etc. - but still has a slightly unusual setup in that it mixes real world religions and history with fantasy. In this world, humans from 11th century Earth arrived thanks to a major magical mishap, and they brought their religion and knowledge with them, and eventually created kingdoms of their own. I like it, but it's not to everyone's taste.



Some other GURPS advice:

- 150 character points is a good starting value for more or less "heroic" campaigns. The PCs can be compared to 5th level D&D characters - competent, but not overwhelmingly powerful.

- GURPS isn't actually all that lethal like it has sometimes been claimed - while it is relatively easy to get incapacitated, actually killing someone takes longer, especially if he has a high Health value. Encourage your melee fighters to invest in HT 11 or 12 at the least.

- Armor is vital for melee fighters (and useful for other characters, too). Unlike D&D, it doesn't make the PC harder to hit, but instead substracts from the damage a character receives. Without armor, a character will go down after one to three hits.

- Don't bother with point totals for your NPCs. Unlike the "Challenge Ratings" of D&D, there is simply no point in calculating them, since CPs don't represent combat effectivity - they are only an accounting tool for player characters. Just give NPCs (and monsters, for that matter) whatever abilities seem appropriate.

- Don't use all the optional combat rules right from the start, or else you will overwhelm your players.

- Don't give you "mook" opponents - those that the PCs are supposed to mow down by the dozens - high combat skill or high HT. Either of these will make a combat drag on for a long time and frustrate the players. As a rule, only "named", major NPCs should have combat skill values above 12. If you want to make "nameless" opponents more fearsome, I suggest giving them a higher Strength. They won't hit often, but when they do hit, it will hurt - and that will keep the PCs on their toes.

- GURPS characters can become very powerful at high point totals as well (and high-point campaigns work much better with the 4th edition than with the 3rd), and such games can get quite cinematic. However, even highly competent characters should use sound tactics, like making use of the terrain so that they don't get surrounded. Letting a character get surrounded by enemies is a very bad idea...
 

jmucchiello said:
Yes, GURPS combat is "realistic" meaning any sane individual avoids combat if they value life and limb.

For this reason I actually suggest HERO over GURPS. It can be less deadly. Problem with HERO is, it is an even bigger DIY system. Although 5th ed does have a lot more prebuilt options than older editions did. But you have to buy them separately. Fantasy HERO magic can be a simple as D&D magic whereas GURPS Magic is rather limited in my experience.
Characters in GURPS can be quite resilient... if the campaign allows for the appropriate builds. As many other things in GURPS it's up to the GM to turn the grittiness dial one way or the other...

I would also like to add that the current edition (the 4th) is much better equipped to deal with high powered characters than the previous one, which is probably what most other posters are talking about...
 

Nikosandros said:
Characters in GURPS can be quite resilient... if the campaign allows for the appropriate builds. As many other things in GURPS it's up to the GM to turn the grittiness dial one way or the other...

In GURPS 4E, the Health stat is cheaper than in 3E. So is buying Extra Hit Points. So building a rather tough character shouldn't be much of a problem as long as you have enough character points available. Of course, that character should still get a decent armor if he wants to live longer, but the same is true of D&D, if for slightly different reasons.

And I still remember one particular fight in my GURPS Eberron campaign - the three player characters against six ogres in the depths of Xen'drik. That fight was plenty cinematic...
 

GURPS4e is my no.1 game of choice for everything from cyberpunk gutter scum to living gods - so just one remark:

- "deadly" is misleading. In fact in GURPS4e characters are a lot less likely to die the "instant death" of D&D PCs. However, unless you use certain "cinematic" rule modifications, the PCs are a lot more likely to suffer from knockdown, unconsciousness, crippled limbs, etc. than in a D&D campaign, i.e. just like in real life combatants in GURPS can experience "mission kills" *very* quickly...
 

Honestly the way my players play - unconscious is about the same as dead - mostly from a bad case of "I shoot him in the head while he's out".
 

sjmiller said:
That's actually not true. If you want, you can actually start out and play with just GURPS Lite. It has the basic rules for character creation, combat, magic, and psionics (I think, it's been awhile since I looked). There's enough there that you can run several game sessions. Heck, there's even a free fantasy scenario you can get to try out the rules. All in all, to try out GURPS costs you exactly nothing.

yeah, you could try it out for free. The game is still expensive.
 

mcrow said:
yeah, you could try it out for free. The game is still expensive.
So is D&D, and you cannot try that one for free. It's not a terribly valid arguement, since just about every RPG is expensive to get into. To buy the four key books to run fantasy in GURPS (Characters, Campaigns, Fantasy, and Magic) would cost $144.80 at cover price. To buy four key books to run D&D (Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, and one accessory book averaging $34.95) would cost you $124.80. The $20 difference won't buy you another book. It really all boils down to preference in game style and system mechanics.
 

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